Golden High Flow, why wont it work

[Arron]

Hi All
I have a problem using Golden High Flow acrylics.
I'm a beginner at this so hopefully its something everyone else has gone through and solved.

Anyway, the problem is that when using Golden HF for fine lines the paint starts off OK but within a few seconds it chokes off - so that no more paint will flow. It only occurs when doing fine lines - say 1mm wide or less - but they are actually quite important to me.

I'm about 90% sure its not a simple tip dry issue, though as I said I'm new at this.

Doing some experiments with other paints, I do not get the same problem. The other paints will spray fine lines until the cup runs out.

I have tried every possible combination of pressure and viscosity with virtually no difference.

I have included a photo of some squiggles on card using different paint mixes to show you what I mean. The parameters for this test were:
Iwata Eclipse HP-CS
Airbrush was thoroughly cleaned in Acetone before starting, then rinsed, then lubed. Also cleaned with windex between each test.
All done at 26psi
2 regulators and 2 water/oil filters on the compressor
temperature today 17 degrees celsius, a bit of rain about

As you can see I used cheap red airbrush acrylic from a supermarket (Aldi) on the left and it sprayed fine.
Then I used Tamiya acrylic cut with X-20a, the recommended thinner. It was fine too.
Then I used Golden HF, straight from the well shaken bottle. You can see it peters out after a few seconds.
Then I used Golden HF cut with about 40% water. It went a bit longer, but still fail.
Then I used Golden HF cut with about 40% water and 10% Interactive Retarder, fail again.

So, using other paints I have no problem doing fine lines, and using Golden HF I have no problem doing the broad stuff but cant get the fine lines happening.

So, sorry if this has already been discussed, I did search the forums but may have not used right terminology.

So can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong.
cheers
Arron

 

[markjthomson]

Hi Aaron, can you do another photo for us, just a straight line? Can you also compare painting with the air cap on (the thing that covers the needle) and with it off? - be gentle with the second one... I use the same paint and set up all the time but spray with the cap off... What is the interactive retarder... is that a golden product? If not, what is it designed for?

 

[JackEb]

well written, lots of info

I cant help with the golden paint as I don't use it but I think @markjthomson has got you covered for help with that.
Just a couple of things. . .
Acetone..... be aware that if you don't have the solvent resistant seals in your brush you will cause damage to them, and never spray acetone into the air, always into a 'cleaning pot' it can be home made but don't breathe that vapour in ! !

How well have you mixed the Golden, often a quick shake wont do it if the bottle has been sitting around. a stiff bit of wire with a loop in the end is quite effective at stirring up everything that has settled to the bottom.
Straining is also a good idea on any paint that is going through an airbrush.
Have you tried other colours of golden is it just that one colour of Golden that you are having issues with, it may just be a bad bottle

 

[musicmacd]

Strangley I have this issue Golden paints, i put it down to 'they hate me' I know there are amazing works of art with them and lots of good artists use them. Some people dont get on with Createx or Etac either, im interested to see where you go with this.

 

[Malky]

I'm using Golden Hugh flow straight at 15 psi and 50/50 at 10 psi with no problems whatsoever, I'm also using the the side feed eclipse, so I think like Mark says you just have a bad bottle, have you also tried straining your paint, I strain every single paint whether I think it needs it or not, I never ever use acetone and definitely never use acetone for cleaning thus alone will cause you problems, and lubing is something I would only do if there was a serious problem with moving parts, I flush between colours with reduced cleaner and water, the only part I remove is the needle for cleaning since flushing does not clean the needle at the packing nut/seal.

 

[Arron]

Mark I"ve don't what you suggested and attached it. As you can see - the Aldi and Tamiya paints are fine - I had to double back on the line quite a few times and still they were firing. The Golden fizzled out about 3/4 of the way across.

The top line in each case is with tip on, the bottom is with tip off. No real difference. The aldi paint in tip-off version seems to be fading out but it actually isn't, its just bad style due to be panicking about touching the needle on the surface.

In general the lines are about 0.5mm wide. I don't really need to do lines this thin, but I do want it thin like this for doing delicate textures.

to answer some other questions:
The Interactive retarder is just a brand name. Actually its Atelier Interactive Retarder. I realise I should be using a Golden product with Golden paints but I haven't because I'm getting a bit tired of purchasing art products and finding they don't work as I expect them to - I could just about open an art store by now. I also note that other people use it straight from the bottle, so the retarder shouldn't really be necessary (perhaps).

Yep, I have stirred it pretty well so I'm confident there. I don't strain my paints however.

I"ve tried several Golden colours, all the same.

Anyway, I'm starting to rethink this, maybe it is just tip-dry. How do you people who use Golden use it ? Do you thin it? Add retarder ? Do you use it for thin lines (remembering it works fine for thicker stuff for me), so maybe I'm just trying to do something weird with it and exposing the fact that it isn't good at everything ?

cheers and thanks for the help so far
Arron

 

[markjthomson]

Hmmm, OK so another question... as @JackEb asked, how well did you shake them? and did you filter them? put them through panti hose... that's a good strainer. I reduce mine with water or the base products. I don't reduce them for most of my work. I'm pretty confident the eclipse has a teflon seal (mine does from the factory) so that is OK. If it's tip dry you will see it on the needle.

 

[basepaint]

I think straining the paint would be a good start then reduce it (I use 3drops paint to 6drops reducer to start)
And can do fine lines at 20 psi you might just have to adjust your paint/reducer a little more ,but like what was already said might be old paint so straining after a good mixing might get the old dry clumps of paint that you get from it sitting on a shelf from getting in your airbrush

 

[markjthomson]

Oh and if it doesn't work - send me the paints...

 

[Malky]

The first and most important thing is I only use Golden mediums in Golden paints, adding any other brand could and usually will cause problems, retarder is for holding back drying and for my methods that's the last thing I need, I use straight from the bottle for large full opacity areas and reduce with water for detail, how much reducing is a question of taste and situation but generally 1 paint, 5 trans medium and 5 water.

Water based paints dry fairly quick and dry also on the bottle walls and in the space between the spout on the bottles, when you realise this is going happen even with a bottle straight it of the factory you get into the habit of straining, tip dry is a fact of life I just deal with although some paints are worse for it than others so I simply avoid them.

My advice is to strain your paint, just throw a small piece of of old nylon panties over the bottle neck and screw the lid nack on over it, also every once in a while take the spout lid off, pull it apart and clean it to get dried paint out of it then push it back together, it's a simple case eliminating all the minor problems to avoid the big ones.

 

[Arron]

Malky, iF by 'trans medium' you mean Golden Airbrush Transparent Medium then that, I think, is the missing factor. I looked for a product like that and didn't find it - guess I didn't look hard enough. I'm thinking that whenever you set up to do sub-one mm thick lines that's what Golden needs. I think maybe most experienced people just forget to mention that.

A few experiments I did this afternoon with the Atelier Reducer in the Golden paints indicates that it has the opposite effect, the more you use the worse the tip dry gets.

These airbrush paints really are fussy little things.

Looks like it's time to raid the wife's pantyhose drawer too.

Cheers
Arron

 

[musicmacd]

The transbase wont help you get thin lines as its paint without pigment, Malky's ratio is basically 6drops paint 5 drops water if that foesn't work then the base wont help either.

 

[Mr.Micron]

Golden High Flow straight out the bottle is 35PSI recommended by Golden .
Reduced is where you start dropping PSI.
Do you strain your paint ?
Being new to airbrushing learning how to control you airbrush and learning ONE and only ONE paint system to start out with is the key.
When you start using a lot of different paint is where a lot of new airbrushers have issues.
While you may think you have your airbrush clean it may well not be . For water base paints I always suggest using Createx's Restorer http://www.coastairbrush.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Restorer to soak only the nozzle in .
Some HP-CS still have the rubber needle bearing in them and all of them have the rubber o-ring in the air valve which both will swell up and cause some major issues . The needle bearing will cause the needle to stick once pulled back and the air valve will cause the air to stay on after you release the trigger.
Which I see you have had issues with in one of your other post.
Never soak the entire airbrush in anything but hot (mild) soapy water and rinse well .

 

[haasje dutchairbrush]

It has been said already but in as a rule of thumb it is wise to stick to one brand. As I myself generaly don't follow my own advice I found out the hard way that this "rule" is realy one to adhere to.

All these paints eventhough all water based will have chemicals of some kind in them and you just don't know what will happen when you mix them. For instance when I mix E'tac and Illustration it will become a "gumlike" substance pretty quick (some of these "waterbased" paints can't even be reduced with normal water ).

You might want to see what hapens if you just put together the stuff you mix and see if it remains liquid or if it starts to clog together if that happens just do the same again and leave one of the components out to identify the culprit.

What also has been mentioned, and this is very true, is that some paint just doesn't work for some. If you keep having troubles you might consider switching to a brand that suits you better.

 

[AndreZA]

I asked Golden Paints if their transparent base and airbrush mediums are the same and they said definitely not. Airbrush will block really fast if you push transparent base through it.

 

[Malky]

I asked Golden Paints if their transparent base and airbrush mediums are the same and they said definitely not. Airbrush will block really fast if you push transparent base through it.

What I'm using isn't actually called transparent Base, it is called "Golden Aclyic Medium" which I don't think is the same thing, but it does make my mix transparent and works better than E'tac crap which I wasted money on based on advice on here, but I'll keep it for making my own fly paper, in fact if I mix the extend air with it I can trap humans too

I can't see why Golden would say their transparant Base is useless, why would they make it if they they new it was no good?, I mean they changed the paint formulae to high flow and I had no problem with old mix.

I think it's possible that they meant my brush would clog if the Golden Base is too close by when I want try to frustrate myself with E'tac, I'll try using the E'tac with the Golden in another room

As said what works for one doesn't always work for another and E'tac unfortunately doesn't amuse me at all, especially considering the price, I can't the stuff to behave through my eclipse Leyland alone a micron, it's that same crap that caused me to give away my gear and grab my pencils, I've never had a clog or tip dry with pencil

 

[AndreZA]

I can't see why Golden would say their transparant Base is useless, why would they make it if they they new it was no good?, I mean they changed the paint formulae to high flow and I had no problem with old mix.

They did not say that. They said the two are not the same and the base should not be used in an airbrush. If you have ever seen the info video about High Flow you would know what and why they changed.

And just because you can't work with a paint brand, does not make it crap. I can't get Createx products to work like I want it to but do I call it crap, no. I keep on testing until I'm happy with what I've got. I'm there in all the mediums I play with. I'm now on to paint brushes. What I have is not crap, they just do not do what I need them to do.

 

[JPulliam]

This is the link to the info direct from Golden.

http://www.goldenpaints.com/technicalinfo_highflow

Hope this helps everyone.

 

[Mr.Micron]

Settle down now , I have no luck with E'tac either but I always blame me and not the paint. Wicked I have learned that system well as with the Illustration paint, Golden I am still playing around with but so far it works great, Still have a test panel sitting out where all weather can hit it to see how well it will hold up over time , Trident paint I liked except for the cost here in the USA, Comart flows well at low pressure ,
As you all can see I have tried a lot of different brands to see what works for me ,
None of it is crap paint some of it you just need someone who can use it well to show you the ins and outs of it I think.
but that is just the water base ., Urethane is a whole other story , HOK ,PPG, SEM , and so on and so forth LOL
But the way I listed them is pretty much the pecking order in my opinion ,

 

[Malky]

Settle down now , I have no luck with E'tac either but I always blame me and not the paint. Wicked I have learned that system well as with the Illustration paint, Golden I am still playing around with but so far it works great, Still have a test panel sitting out where all weather can hit it to see how well it will hold up over time , Trident paint I liked except for the cost here in the USA, Comart flows well at low pressure ,
As you all can see I have tried a lot of different brands to see what works for me ,
None of it is crap paint some of it you just need someone who can use it well to show you the ins and outs of it I think.
but that is just the water base ., Urethane is a whole other story , HOK ,PPG, SEM , and so on and so forth LOL
But the way I listed them is pretty much the pecking order in my opinion ,

I usually blame me too but when I can get a reasonable result with anything other than E'tac and the Createx versions that I've actually bothered to try then I think that entitles me to put at least a little of the blame onto the paint itself, I have heard others mention the stickiness of E'tac so that part is definitely not in my head nor is the ridiculous tip dry I have encountered with both standard createx and Illustration, simply because I now avoid using any of these now I'm starting to claw back some the two years plus I wasted trying these out and make a little progress, and when I think of the money I've wasted in all that time, not just on paints, but on other materials including brushes too, I think that gives me the right to state that I personally find that crap, there really is something wrong when the most expensive of all the items I tried did nothing but hold me back and frustrate me, I reckon that would sicken just about anyone, is it any wonder now that every time I see the phrase "you really need to get that one because it is the best that was ever made" my head automatically says "SPONSORED"

I wouldn't recommend anyone at all to go out buy loads of Golden paints and mediums just because it works for me and doesn't give me any grief because if they did that and it didn't work I would be to blame, I am simply stating that Golden works fine for me in my circumstances because I shake the bottle and strain the paint before I even start to spray, and even neat it flies through my Eclipse at a measly 15 psi, I couldn't guarantee that will happen for everyone.

Mitch is about to show what can be done with the cheapest of tools by doing a project with a master airbrush, and I am confident he is going to rock it, but there won't be a clueless idiot behind that brush which is what happened to me, put a high end precision tool four times the cost of the brush I have now in the hands of an idiot like me and I will show just how bad a micron can perform in the right, isn't it strange to think that the only successes I have ever had or those works I had the most fun with were all done with a very similar brush to what Mitch is going to test, I can't attribute any success at all to E'tac, Schoelershammer or Micron's and these items may very well be fine, but not for me