H&S wins Iwata last chance

[palk]

OK! I am painting lots of fishing lures racks of 20 lures and 10 racks "pretty painted sticks"
I am going to order 2 H&S Ultra's a gravity and a siphon feed on Monday and another 1 or 2 after hands on testing
H&S Ultra & X $117.23ea freight included
I priced around with the HP-CS $164.89ea + $12.60 freight
I priced around with the HP-BCS $173.25ea + $12.60 freight
My reasoning behind it is 55% price
Ease of cleaning 10%
Commonality of parts 20%
Upgrade ability 15%
these percentages are in direct comparison to the HP-CS and in Aussie Dollars

Not having used or either seen both, I can only base my decisions on engineering. And lets face it forward of the cup its an infinity at it's heart
How pretty an AB looks carries no weight with me if the nickel wears off due to salts from my hand in 2 to 10 years is not an issue for me.The nickel being a soft metal does give me pause in the nozzle seal area but the CS is brass, so draw their
The fussiness of the H&S,s range to various paints is a concern to me, almost tipped the scales in other direction as buying more expensive paints would negate 55% of my decision. I am using thinners based paints and the few that use it have no issues this type.

Please comment and give your thoughts
Let it out folks ,I have a thick skin and a good sense of humor

Thanks to Air brush Megastore (those guys are very helpful and great prices)
and to Dave G very succinct and direct answers.

 

[AndreZA]

The Eclipse does not fall on the same level as the Ultra so purchase price is not a factor. I've never cleaned an Ultra so can't compare but the Eclipse is very easy to clean. No where to upgrade the Eclipse but there is no need to. Parts are more expensive but they will last much longer because they are very tough. Having played this week with an Evolution and Eclipse with paint that I do not normally use, I can say that the Eclipse handled it better than the Evolution.

But congratulations on your decision and I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

 

[Ronald art]

to each its own I tried the H&S and I didnt like the trigger action so it is Iwata for me plus I am hooked on side feeds so any gravity feeds are a no go for me

 

[JackEb]

I have an infinity and iwata, I haven’t had an issue yet but I hear the H&S needles and nozzles can be a little more fragile than the iwatas, but to be fair the infinity doesn’t come out to play as often as the iwata.
If you’re going to need to buy yearly spares for the H&S and not the iwatas for a couple of years how does that effect your calculations?

 

[palk]

to each its own I tried the H&S and I didn't like the trigger action so it is Iwata for me plus I am hooked on side feeds so any gravity feeds are a no go for me

Thanks for your comment what put you off about the trigger action.... I only have a cheap chinese brush as reference, I have never tried a AB from a first grade supplier.
I am posting a pick of my efforts so far
The bodies are 43mm long and 12mm wide

 

[palk]

I have an infinity and iwata, I haven’t had an issue yet but I hear the H&S needles and nozzles can be a little more fragile than the iwatas, but to be fair the infinity doesn’t come out to play as often as the iwata.
If you’re going to need to buy yearly spares for the H&S and not the iwatas for a couple of years how does that effect your calculations?

You are a person that who is in a position to feed me some relevant opinions. So far I have not damaged any part s "YET" (I'm ordering a needle now) and half the painting I do is without the crown cap and the ruggedness of the HP-CS is legendary.
As for spares because the H&S are interchangeable I would need fewer spares on the shelf and are about equal in price and the CS has fewer options in sizes

 

[palk]

The Eclipse does not fall on the same level as the Ultra so purchase price is not a factor. I've never cleaned an Ultra so can't compare but the Eclipse is very easy to clean. No where to upgrade the Eclipse but there is no need to. Parts are more expensive but they will last much longer because they are very tough. Having played this week with an Evolution and Eclipse with paint that I do not normally use, I can say that the Eclipse handled it better than the Evolution.

But congratulations on your decision and I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

I kind of disagree quality wise.
That's the funny thing about H&S forward of the cup they are all the same so when you buy another model up you are buying hopefully a better trigger mechanism, an adjustable trigger stop, a rapidly repeatable trigger stop and screw in cup size options mixed in there. They are so desperate to create product differentiation in their line up that they use nickel and chrome plate options that cost the same to put on. Technically the ultra should be a little easier to clean no dirty threads on the screw in cup to clean. The down side is access hole size of the cup
If I am wrong call me on it I have only seen pictures and parts drawings, there is a big difference between reading something and knowledge I am chasing the latter ...
Maybe that should be my new signature.

 

[Malky]

Thats the funny thing about H&S forward of the cup they are all the same so when you buy another model up you are buying hopefully a better trigger mechanism, an adjustable trigger stop, a rapidly repeatable trigger stop and screw in cup size options mixed in there. They are so desperate to create product differentiation in their line up that they use nickel and chrome plate options that cost the same to put on. Technically the ultra should be a little easier to clean no dirty threads on the screw in cup to clean. The down side is access hole size of the cup
If I am wrong call me on it I have only seen pictures and parts drawings, there is a big difference between reading something and knowledge I am chasing the latter ...
Maybe that should be my new signature.

Don't be too confident of the idea tgat the trigger mechanics will be different or better when you get the more expensive ones, I had an evolution silverline two in one and the trigger was impossible, I had constant blowouts and little or no control, I need up trashing that brush and throwing it out, then I bought my first iwata, now I wouldn't have an H&S if it was free, the first thing I noticed with my first iwata which was HP-BH+ was that iwata's needles are finer and have more of a taper which helped it's performance big time.

Since needles, heads and indeed all mechanics are different between H&S and iwata you just can't compete then te each other but I can assure that difference in the price with iwata is well justified.

I would recommend you try to find a way to try out both brands before making the choice you mentioned, you just be surprised, and as mentioned, the eclipse is reduclously easy to clean, but I never had any problem cleaning my HP-BH.

 

[Ronald art]

just like Malky said about the trigger I was not able to find the sweet spot that made the paint flow and when I finally got some paint it was next to impossible to control the paint flow like I am used to with my Iwata's it can be a matter of getting used to but I had 2 students who used the H&S for years but could not do what I showed them to do but had control over the Iwata HP B+ with in a second I handed it to them

 

[palk]

Thanks
Ronald and Malky
It is the most definitive answers I have received and they are not falling on deaf ears
In my post you refer to I did use the word hopefully

 

[DaveG]

for me, there is no category other than beauty that would have me picking any H&S before a compatible Iwata. Out of the 3 H&S brushes I do own, I enjoy the Grafo T1 the most, the Infinity CR 2 in 1 Plus the least. On the Infinity it is down to the trigger feel that keeps it in the display cabinet more than on the end of an air hose. I have lots of needles and nozzles for all the H&S brushes, and have experienced no problems with the quality or durability of the parts. Micha does phenomenal work with his H&S brushes, so they are more than capable - on test sheets they produce equal details for me, as anything else... just not near as comfortably, or easily.

My choice would be an Iwata HP-B+ for a mid sized gravity feed, and an HP-SB+ for side feed. Behind those would be an Eclipse in the configuration that fit me best; I find I use my SBS the most out of the ones I do own.

 

[Jurien72]

All I can say is I now own 2 H&S brushes and I love them both. Granted I am a beginner, but just ask @Rick Martin how my trigger control was on his Evolution . I think this comes down to personal preference. Tax Santa is coming soon, and perhaps this year he will bring me a shiny new Iwata so I can determine for myself which is the better brush.
The bottom line here is if you are happy with your purchase then so be it. It's not like you bought a Paasche!

 

[palk]

for me, there is no category other than beauty that would have me picking any H&S before a compatible Iwata. Out of the 3 H&S brushes I do own, I enjoy the Grafo T1 the most, the Infinity CR 2 in 1 Plus the least. On the Infinity it is down to the trigger feel that keeps it in the display cabinet more than on the end of an air hose. I have lots of needles and nozzles for all the H&S brushes, and have experienced no problems with the quality or durability of the parts. Micha does phenomenal work with his H&S brushes, so they are more than capable - on test sheets they produce equal details for me, as anything else... just not near as comfortably, or easily.

My choice would be an Iwata HP-B+ for a mid sized gravity feed, and an HP-SB+ for side feed. Behind those would be an Eclipse in the configuration that fit me best; I find I use my SBS the most out of the ones I do own.

I was expecting you DaveG I value your insights and experimentation
The HP-SB is $328.90 + freight
HP-B+ is $210.37 + freight
These are Aussie dollars and is above my budget I can stretch it a bit, but B+ and SB are to far.
The 0.35 paint nozzle in the HP-CS is a screw in nozzle does it match the other ones in the HP or revolution series of Iwata's
Or are there options (brands) worth considering

 

[DaveG]

I was expecting you DaveG I value your insights and experimentation
The HP-SB is $328.90 + freight
HP-B+ is $210.37 + freight
These are Aussie dollars and is above my budget I can stretch it a bit, but B+ and SB are to far.
The 0.35 paint nozzle in the HP-CS is a screw in nozzle does it match the other ones in the HP or revolution series of Iwata's
Or are there options (brands) worth considering

The HP-CS has a .35 screw in nozzle inserted into a brass cone nozzle. The screw in portion is actually not replaceable - the two pieces are sold as one unit, and should never be taken apart. Hard for me to guess what is available in Australia, or via the internet that may be obtainable for reasonable prices in Aussie land. If you are driven strictly by a budget, then you do the best you can. Bottom line, almost any brush will work as long as you spend the time getting to know what it likes, and does not like.

 

[Rick Martin]

Yeah @Jurien72 pretty well has that evolution under control.

 

[palk]

All I can say is I now own 2 H&S brushes and I love them both. Granted I am a beginner, but just ask @Rick Martin how my trigger control was on his Evolution . I think this comes down to personal preference. Tax Santa is coming soon, and perhaps this year he will bring me a shiny new Iwata so I can determine for myself which is the better brush.
The bottom line here is if you are happy with your purchase then so be it. It's not like you bought a Paasche!

Funny you mention Paasche, the Talon was my first consideration, the fan cap and large cup with the price of the spare parts along with the good name from years gone by. But multiple forums searches, it became apparent where I would be heading (The complaints department) And one of the reasons I picked this forum to join.

What's the difference in the trigger feel between the Evo and the Ifini I do have one job for the Ifini trigger stop would be handy The Red lure with 4 black dots with yellow centers. Base coat is pearl white then a very thin polyester red I use very well thinned black acrylic to blast through the red to the white pearl then finished off with acrylic yellow The blast through with the black might be where the Infini trigger stop might be useful.

 

[m3ntalo]

I would not recommend the ultra (I have one to help my gf just with cake decorating), because the air cap you can't remove and not pick /clean the needle Easily. I'd get the evo or Infinity. I own 3 h&s (Grafo t2, Evo and ultra). The evolution started as a detail brush and ended up as a . 4 setup with 50ml cup for murals and my go to airbrush for thicker paint like undiluted white etc. The customisation of the h&s are the main advantage in my point of view.
Quality wise they are absolutely on par with the other high quality brands, just nozzle and needles are softer.... But on the other side much cheaper (also good when you want to have different setups at home). Paint wise I have the biggest issues with the sotar, all tough I prefer that one at the moment over my Olympos and micron sb. It's a personal choice. In my opinion the quality of iwata and h&s are both very high and maybe except the neo (don't know that one) and the ultra (just the stick on cup, non changeable and the air cap) I would recommend both brands.

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[palk]

I would or recommend the ultra (I have one to help my gf just with cake decorating), because the air cap you can't remove and not pick /clean the needle Easily. I'd get the evo or Infinity. I own 3 h&s (Grafo t2, Evo and ultra). The evolution started as a detail brush and ended up as a . 4 setup with 50ml cup for murals and my go to airbrush for thicker paint like undiluted white etc. The customisation of the h&s are the main advantage in my point of view.
Quality wise they are absolutely on par with the other high quality brands, just nozzle and needles are softer.... But on the other side much cheaper (also good when you want to have different setups at home). Paint wise I have the biggest issues with the sotar, all tough I prefer that one at the moment over my Olympos and micron sb. It's a personal choice. In my opinion the quality of iwata and h&s are both very high and maybe except the neo (don't know that one) and the ultra (just the stick on cup, non changeable and the air cap) I would recommend both brands.

Gesendet von meinem SM-N950F mit Tapatalk

Thanks for comments
I think the translation did not go well
I believe I understand the idea you are giving me
You can change the air cap on the Ultra with the Infinity air cap. To use two prong crown... is this right?

 

[m3ntalo]

Thanks for comments
I think the translation did not well
I believe I understand the idea you are giving me
You can change the air cap on the Ultra with the Infinity air cap. To use two prong crown... is this right?

No translation, but the tapatalk app and my phone are awfully slow working. It's a pain to write. But you understood correct.
Yes. This would work, but again at extra costs. Along with this and especially the screw on cup of the other models, there are two advantages that in my opinion the higher price of the evolution is well spent. Overall the finish is just not as good on the Ultra. Also I think there is an easier mechanism to hold the needle, where you can't change any resistance etc.

Gesendet von meinem SM-N950F mit Tapatalk

 

[Micha der Wolf]

For those who are still thinking about the right brand:
http://airbrush-magazin.de/harder-steenbeck-unter-neuer-leitung