Need some help with reduction

[JohnD]

I'm using Wicked detail paint and an Iwata Hiline HP-CH airbrush. Having a tough time finding the right ratio of paint to reducer along with the proper pressure. Experiment with 20-40 psi and can't find the sweet spot. Can't get a consistent flow. It starts our fine but then runs dry. Try to pick the needle clean and spray paint to clear. Start trying to paint again then nothing comes out of the brush. Pull back the trigger more followed by a big splash of paint! ARG!

 

[Nada]

John tip dry is what you are experiencing. Picking the tip clean becomes normal. I know I don't clean my tip very often but I spray at lower pressures than you. I also use a different paint. You are using the wicked reducer? It has retarders to help.

If it happens and don't seem to clear a thorough clean is in order... with that said I'm horrible about it and usually wait til I ruin some art.

 

[RebelAir]

You can also try adding a drop or two of glycerin (Shld be able to get it from the medi section in a supermarket), keeps the paint a bit wetter..Reduction has no real sweet spot, sometimes I'll paint straight from the bottle, sometimes up to 15-1 some may even reduce to higher values but too much can cause binder breakdown, its really just a case of little by little..One of the biggest things I suggest with tip dry is not too stop too long between spraying, obviously longer ya stop, the dryer it gets..humidity, outside temp etc etc all come into play as well so it really is one of things that experimenting is key to find your "sweet spot" for the day cause tommorrow it will likely be different..

Also one more tip, occasionally just point away from ya substrate and give a good blast of paint, I do it always and often its enough to dislodge any buildup without even needing to pick the tip..and never, ever, just keep pulling back on ya trigger when pointed at ya work and no paints coming out, paint shld come straight away and if its not you know there is something wrong and a big boo boo is about to occur..GL mate..

 

[JCD]

I found that polishing your airbrush needle will greatly reduce tip dry.

Jim

 

[HCP-draggin]

The simple fact is that there is no set formula for optimum reduction. At least not with water-based paints. You just learn to sort of "read" the paint, and adjust on the fly. Like driving a car with a manual transmission, eventually it gets so automatic you don't even really think about it.

Being in Wisconsin, where we see a 100+ degree change in weather over the year (closer to 140 this year), I've noticed a TON of factors that affect how well the paint flows. Temps, humidity, barometric pressure, the phase of the moon... Sometimes the paint just doesn't want to work for no apparent reason...

I've used tons of home-brew reducers in the past, and they worked better than what was available at the time, but more and more, I've just been using the W500 reducer when I use Wicked Detail. I also always have some E'Tac Condition-air handy, which reduces tip-dry without over-reducing the paint. You can use it in any acrylic, water-based airbrush paint.

Other than that, I make sure the paint is warm (which has a lot bigger effect than you'd think), and start with the paint reduced to about the consistency of 2% milk, and the pressure set between 30-35 psi. I use a Grex G-MAC to make on-the-fly pressure adjustments (which, yes, means I never really know for certain exactly what pressure I'm using, but it's pretty easy to tell if it's too low or too high). And add a bit of reducer or condition-air as needed.

Also, ALWAYS have a piece of paper or something handy to test spray on, and use it BEFORE you spray it onto the work. Trust me, that alone can save you a lot of headaches.

 

[MeeshellMP]

I agree to the above comments. I also, every so often "blast" the paint out, keep a good flow going. I use the 500 reducer, and I love it. Because of my Krome, I cant pick the paint off, I use a baby toothbrush, and I dont have to swipe it clean very often. Im between 25-40psi, depending on what im painting. Createx has a web site you can go to, to get suggested mixtures. But, its like (what was already said) its about finding your sweet spot. What works for me, might not work for others. When im doing a black n white portrait, I use 2 drops of Wicked black, and 25 drops 500 reducer @30psi. On metal? It would be 25 drops black, and maybe 5 drops of reducer. Same concept with the golf carts, only I dont count, I just dump it in , cause I know right away how much to add. Hope all of the input you have gotten so far helps ya out!

 

[JohnD]

The simple fact is that there is no set formula for optimum reduction. At least not with water-based paints. You just learn to sort of "read" the paint, and adjust on the fly. Like driving a car with a manual transmission, eventually it gets so automatic you don't even really think about it.

Being in Wisconsin, where we see a 100+ degree change in weather over the year (closer to 140 this year), I've noticed a TON of factors that affect how well the paint flows. Temps, humidity, barometric pressure, the phase of the moon... Sometimes the paint just doesn't want to work for no apparent reason...

I've used tons of home-brew reducers in the past, and they worked better than what was available at the time, but more and more, I've just been using the W500 reducer when I use Wicked Detail. I also always have some E'Tac Condition-air handy, which reduces tip-dry without over-reducing the paint. You can use it in any acrylic, water-based airbrush paint.

Other than that, I make sure the paint is warm (which has a lot bigger effect than you'd think), and start with the paint reduced to about the consistency of 2% milk, and the pressure set between 30-35 psi. I use a Grex G-MAC to make on-the-fly pressure adjustments (which, yes, means I never really know for certain exactly what pressure I'm using, but it's pretty easy to tell if it's too low or too high). And add a bit of reducer or condition-air as needed.

Also, ALWAYS have a piece of paper or something handy to test spray on, and use it BEFORE you spray it onto the work. Trust me, that alone can save you a lot of headaches.

I agree to the above comments. I also, every so often "blast" the paint out, keep a good flow going. I use the 500 reducer, and I love it. Because of my Krome, I cant pick the paint off, I use a baby toothbrush, and I dont have to swipe it clean very often. Im between 25-40psi, depending on what im painting. Createx has a web site you can go to, to get suggested mixtures. But, its like (what was already said) its about finding your sweet spot. What works for me, might not work for others. When im doing a black n white portrait, I use 2 drops of Wicked black, and 25 drops 500 reducer @30psi. On metal? It would be 25 drops black, and maybe 5 drops of reducer. Same concept with the golf carts, only I dont count, I just dump it in , cause I know right away how much to add. Hope all of the input you have gotten so far helps ya out!

I agree to the above comments. I also, every so often "blast" the paint out, keep a good flow going. I use the 500 reducer, and I love it. Because of my Krome, I cant pick the paint off, I use a baby toothbrush, and I dont have to swipe it clean very often. Im between 25-40psi, depending on what im painting. Createx has a web site you can go to, to get suggested mixtures. But, its like (what was already said) its about finding your sweet spot. What works for me, might not work for others. When im doing a black n white portrait, I use 2 drops of Wicked black, and 25 drops 500 reducer @30psi. On metal? It would be 25 drops black, and maybe 5 drops of reducer. Same concept with the golf carts, only I dont count, I just dump it in , cause I know right away how much to add. Hope all of the input you have gotten so far helps ya out!

I really appreciate everyone's kindness in replying. I'll just keep painting and I should figure it out...hopefully...over time! Thanks again!

 

[RebelAir]

I must admit that I'm kinda over the "milk consistency" idea, I think its an antiquated idea left over from the early days of airbrushing that some just repeat out of habit as really who has ever poured a glass of milk out and checked their paint consistency againts it and are we talking low fat, skinny milk, full cream or straight from the cow? Hehehe. Plus its soooo often we go beyond that consistency these days with finer tolerance needles, new paint types and needs that its just well...not needed as a reference point anymore...Just keep practicing John, you'll get the hang of it soon, it is one of those learning curves we all suffer early on..

 

[HCP-draggin]

I must admit that I'm kinda over the "milk consistency" idea, I think its an antiquated idea left over from the early days of airbrushing that some just repeat out of habit as really who has ever poured a glass of milk out and checked their paint consistency againts it and are we talking low fat, skinny milk, full cream or straight from the cow? Hehehe. Plus its soooo often we go beyond that consistency these days with finer tolerance needles, new paint types and needs that its just well...not needed as a reference point anymore...Just keep practicing John, you'll get the hang of it soon, it is one of those learning curves we all suffer early on..

That's probably why it's used as a "starting point", not called "the solution to all of your problems". What makes you think that the age of a piece of information would make it "out-dated"? The airbrush hasn't changed much. The paint hasn't really changed all that much. Why would a piece of advice that purposely gives a broad definition and is meant as an easy-to-remember guide based on something most people are familiar enough with to grasp the idea.

Being a rebel is one thing, being contrary for the sake of being contrary is another.

 

[RebelAir]

Well since your asking me a direct question I'll politely reply. I believe not all information from the past is useful information and to explain that may take a bit. Daily in the world information becomes outdated its just a fact of life, as with our world of Airbrushing and I feel that one is. "Milk consistency" is an antiquated idea and I wasn't backward in why. I would hazard to say that "Milk Consistency" is left over from a time when many artists were mixing their own paints and probably drank different milk LOL..But mix they must, as the internet was indeed not yet invented, your paint supplier wasn't an email away , Micheals Hobby Lobby (Is that what its called? ) may not have been everywhere. paint was a little harder to get. But no doubt when many of these artists where mixing their own they came across a realm of good consistency..Milk

It is though an important realization though of "what milk" when considering to use such an analogy today. Milk also has changed, its consistency has changed, again simple..As a famous singer once said.."The times they are a changin"..But again I would be interested to see anyone has poured a glass of milk to check their paints consistency..yer I know its just a guide, about that will do but with the advent of paint that is sold at that perfect consistency (well in the paint manufacturers eyes at least) thats a starting point for most and in my eyes even though the paint company may be wrong, probably a better option than wasting milk unless ya want a drink at the time. Reduction in essence then has no real connection to milk, as it ultimately depends on what you want your paint thickness to be, thicker than milk consistency is also quite normal, especially for those that are using large needles and reall blasting paint in for murals and such so again, why I think it is an outdated idea.

The fact our thoughts may have differed on a cple of subjects is simply "such is life" but I have no desire of being contrary for the sake of it, I do call myself RebelAir but to explain why I call myself that wld require a longer post but it has most to do with the fact I prefer to see art in airbrushing over replication, not because I like to be contrary just to annoy others although many come here to learn and if I feel i can contribute an idea I will, sorry if that offends you, I just disagree with the concept, not because anyone in particular wrote it...

Oh and by the way I still love much information everyday from painters from hundreds of years ago so I have no issue with old information, much of it has based my whole art life, but many corrected, redefined or left behind what came before for many reasons, I think this is one we could leave behind as it just doesn't really apply nor do I think it really helps..But hey we all have a right to see things differently

 

[Squishy]

Hey John, these guys pretty much got you covered, but as I use (and love) Wicked paints and an Iwata HP-CS (has a .35 nozzle, and no mac valve but I believe(?) they are fairly similar guns), thought I'd weigh in.

First of all, I think everyone goes through this frustration, so rest assured - you are not alone LOL. The detail paints in particular, can have teeny, teeny gloopy bits sometimes (not always), so I would recommend filtering the paint - some pantyhose stretched over the neck works fine. Also try and get the W500 reducer (W100 is fine too, but the W500 is even better), the reducers help with tip dry, and depending on the reduction used, can make it negligable, and also helps give a nice smooth flow. (note - also helps to dry quicker, so not the best for using erasing techniques).

As has been said, there is no magic formula, too many variables involved, and even people with the same set up, may reduce differently, depending on what, and how they like to paint, weather conditions etc. But I use a ratio of 3 drops reducer to one drop paint @ 20 psi (4 drops for black, and some other colours - you will soon get to know the paints). This is my standard base mixture, and I adjust accordingly from there, adding another drop or two if needed, or tweaking the psi a bit (no probs for the mac valve ) Your nozzle is slightly finer, so you may need a bit more reduction, or higher pressure to find your own base. (Or you may end up with something totally different Lol), but the rule of thumb is more reduction = less pressure. Some people like to go as low as 5psi and use 20 or so drops reducer, basically just see what works for you, then play with it a bit to see if it gets better or worse.

It sounds like a complete pain in the you know where, but it really does become second nature pretty quickly. I also give the gun a good blast now and then, to keep the nozzle clear, and flush through with water, or reducer, between colour changes. Also some of the problems sound similar to if you have a blocked or dirty nozzle (filtering may help with that), even if it looks clean as a whistle, stuff hides in there Lol, and it's always worth giving it a clean, just to rule it out of the equation. You must be feeling frustrated right now, but you'll get there, good luck!

 

[ad fez]

squishy how do you manage to strain paint through your holey moth eaten old pantyhose (tights) (apple catchers)??

 

[ad fez]

Well since your asking me a direct question I'll politely reply. I believe not all information from the past is useful information and to explain that may take a bit. Daily in the world information becomes outdated its just a fact of life, as with our world of Airbrushing and I feel that one is. "Milk consistency" is an antiquated idea and I wasn't backward in why. I would hazard to say that "Milk Consistency" is left over from a time when many artists were mixing their own paints and probably drank different milk LOL..But mix they must, as the internet was indeed not yet invented, your paint supplier wasn't an email away , Micheals Hobby Lobby (Is that what its called? ) may not have been everywhere. paint was a little harder to get. But no doubt when many of these artists where mixing their own they came across a realm of good consistency..Milk

It is though an important realization though of "what milk" when considering to use such an analogy today. Milk also has changed, its consistency has changed, again simple..As a famous singer once said.."The times they are a changin"..But again I would be interested to see anyone has poured a glass of milk to check their paints consistency..yer I know its just a guide, about that will do but with the advent of paint that is sold at that perfect consistency (well in the paint manufacturers eyes at least) thats a starting point for most and in my eyes even though the paint company may be wrong, probably a better option than wasting milk unless ya want a drink at the time. Reduction in essence then has no real connection to milk, as it ultimately depends on what you want your paint thickness to be, thicker than milk consistency is also quite normal, especially for those that are using large needles and reall blasting paint in for murals and such so again, why I think it is an outdated idea.

The fact our thoughts may have differed on a cple of subjects is simply "such is life" but I have no desire of being contrary for the sake of it, I do call myself RebelAir but to explain why I call myself that wld require a longer post but it has most to do with the fact I prefer to see art in airbrushing over replication, not because I like to be contrary just to annoy others although many come here to learn and if I feel i can contribute an idea I will, sorry if that offends you, I just disagree with the concept, not because anyone in particular wrote it...

Oh and by the way I still love much information everyday from painters from hundreds of years ago so I have no issue with old information, much of it has based my whole art life, but many corrected, redefined or left behind what came before for many reasons, I think this is one we could leave behind as it just doesn't really apply nor do I think it really helps..But hey we all have a right to see things differently

i sometimes thin my paint until "I" have the consistancy of jack daniels...... what i mean is, i roll up a smoke, pour a glass of jd and i drink and i smoke until i dont really care if there is paint coming out of my brush or not..... once i have reached this hightened state of nirvana, i set about it, blowing spiders and spatters all over my canvas..... do i care though.....??? not one bit..... coz i got my buzz on!

not at all helpfull with the paint reduction thing.....but maybe a bit of food for thought for when things arnt working

 

[Squishy]

@ad fez PMSL fezzles. I didn't say I used mine Lol! I could strain the paint still in the bottle through mine

 

[jord001]

Fishnets? then Squishy, Now you're talking

Lee

 

[Squishy]

PMSL Lee, more like Trawler nets!

 

[RebelAir]

i sometimes thin my paint until "I" have the consistancy of jack daniels...... what i mean is, i roll up a smoke, pour a glass of jd and i drink and i smoke until i dont really care if there is paint coming out of my brush or not..... once i have reached this hightened state of nirvana, i set about it, blowing spiders and spatters all over my canvas..... do i care though.....??? not one bit..... coz i got my buzz on!

Ahhh glad to see I ain't the only one LOL

 

[JohnD]

John tip dry is what you are experiencing. Picking the tip clean becomes normal. I know I don't clean my tip very often but I spray at lower pressures than you. I also use a different paint. You are using the wicked reducer? It has retarders to help.

If it happens and don't seem to clear a thorough clean is in order... with that said I'm horrible about it and usually wait til I ruin some art.

Thanks Nada. I do use Wicked reducer as well. I appreciate your thoughts.

 

[JohnD]

I must admit that I'm kinda over the "milk consistency" idea, I think its an antiquated idea left over from the early days of airbrushing that some just repeat out of habit as really who has ever poured a glass of milk out and checked their paint consistency againts it and are we talking low fat, skinny milk, full cream or straight from the cow? Hehehe. Plus its soooo often we go beyond that consistency these days with finer tolerance needles, new paint types and needs that its just well...not needed as a reference point anymore...Just keep practicing John, you'll get the hang of it soon, it is one of those learning curves we all suffer early on..

Thanks, I will continue to try and hoping that it will come together. Since I'm new to this, it's tough to know when the problem is with the equipment or with the operator!

 

[JohnD]

Hey John, these guys pretty much got you covered, but as I use (and love) Wicked paints and an Iwata HP-CS (has a .35 nozzle, and no mac valve but I believe(?) they are fairly similar guns), thought I'd weigh in.

First of all, I think everyone goes through this frustration, so rest assured - you are not alone LOL. The detail paints in particular, can have teeny, teeny gloopy bits sometimes (not always), so I would recommend filtering the paint - some pantyhose stretched over the neck works fine. Also try and get the W500 reducer (W100 is fine too, but the W500 is even better), the reducers help with tip dry, and depending on the reduction used, can make it negligable, and also helps give a nice smooth flow. (note - also helps to dry quicker, so not the best for using erasing techniques).

As has been said, there is no magic formula, too many variables involved, and even people with the same set up, may reduce differently, depending on what, and how they like to paint, weather conditions etc. But I use a ratio of 3 drops reducer to one drop paint @ 20 psi (4 drops for black, and some other colours - you will soon get to know the paints). This is my standard base mixture, and I adjust accordingly from there, adding another drop or two if needed, or tweaking the psi a bit (no probs for the mac valve ) Your nozzle is slightly finer, so you may need a bit more reduction, or higher pressure to find your own base. (Or you may end up with something totally different Lol), but the rule of thumb is more reduction = less pressure. Some people like to go as low as 5psi and use 20 or so drops reducer, basically just see what works for you, then play with it a bit to see if it gets better or worse.

It sounds like a complete pain in the you know where, but it really does become second nature pretty quickly. I also give the gun a good blast now and then, to keep the nozzle clear, and flush through with water, or reducer, between colour changes. Also some of the problems sound similar to if you have a blocked or dirty nozzle (filtering may help with that), even if it looks clean as a whistle, stuff hides in there Lol, and it's always worth giving it a clean, just to rule it out of the equation. You must be feeling frustrated right now, but you'll get there, good luck!

Thanks for your comments! What to you use to clean your gun? I've been using acetone. I wipe any portion of the gun that I can get to with a paper towel. I blow acetone thru the brush to try to clean out the nozzel and I remove the needle and wipe that down as well. Any other suggestions?