Another Newb Issue...

[Shorti]

Alright, so I read a bit here and there but still unsure of what I should try to correct my issues.

As mentioned here:
https://www.airbrushforum.org/threads/hello-friends.23336/#post-360199

I have the following airbrushes:
Badger 200NH bottom feed
Master G79 gravity fed, dual action

I am working with metal and am preparing to add some details to the project I showed in
the link above. I am going to add the veins and shadows to the leaves. Here is what I'd like
to achieve:


So, I watched some Youtube videos and one of them explained how you should get really close to the
"canvas" to create fine lines and that is what I've been practicing.

I also watched another Youtube video about how to use enamel paint that can be purchased
at your local hardware store. I thought this was a great idea especially if the project
is big. I plan to do a lot of plant type projects so buying larger quantities of green
paint made sense..and plus, these 'plants' are going to be sitting outside so I needed
exterior paint anyway. So, I bought a couple of shades of Behr enamel paint. That is what
I used as the base on the Monstera plant in the picture. That spray went pretty well and
I was pretty happy with the guns.

Now I want to add the detail. Instead of having a quart of all these colors sitting around
I decided to use regular airbrush paint (if there is such a thing). Since I was ordering parts
from Badger (US Airbrush) I order some Minitaire paint. I first practiced with my "regular"
needle/nozzle...the one that came with the guns. I don't see where it tells me what size it is.

I tried this with both guns just in case one worked better for this more close-up work. On the
Badger, I only had the one setting I could change, which was both air/paint mixture. I messed around
with this for an hour trying to dial it in. Basically, when I dialed it down and tried to spray I
would get a little paint (an inch) and then it plugged up. I would try to open it up a bit and
would just get a larger amount of paint (not the fine line I was looking for). I thought maybe the
Minitaire paint was just too thick (although it says its ready to use) to dial it down to a fine line
so I added water. That was no real improvement and just caused more splatter. I still gummed up
when I closed the setting and would get lines that were too large when I opened it up.

So, I switched to the Master wondering if the Badger just wasn't good for this kind of fine detail
but I got the same results. Then I thought I might try using the
enamel paint instead of the Minitaire (maybe the paint isn't good for this type of operation).
Still the same result. After playing with the settings on the Master I finally gave up and went back
to the Badger because I did have a "41-044 P.P.S. Super Detail Conversion" kit that I purchased.

I put that in the gun and the fine lines were definitely better. However, instead of gumming up after
only laying down 1 inch of a line it gummed up after about 3 inches. So, I played around with the setting
for another hour but couldn't improve the issue. Basically, what I had to do is spray 3 inches of line
then clean the tip; spray 3 inches of line then clean the tip, etc. Here's what I did:



Each of those lines it stops spraying paint and I clean the nozzle then start the next line.

Second issue...when I spray on a piece of cardboard it looked decent but when I sprayed on a piece of metal
I get what I believe is called spidering. So, according to a post it says I may have too much air pressure.
I am using my big air compressor for this and had the regulator set at 30 psi. I turned it down to ~15psi and
saw a little improvement on the spidering. I didn't see any improvement on the amount of paint I spray
before I have to clog the tip. I tried reducing the air a little more but, since this compressor is made
for big tools its hard to tell what the pressure is. In this image you can see a lot of splatter on the line on
the right side...it did improve as I was dialing in but still splatter on the far left line. At that point I
was having issue's getting enough paint out of the gun:




Is there a certain psi I should expect to use for this finer details. Is there a cheat-sheet on when to use
what pressure?

Should I purchase some sort of an in-line pressure regulator that will allow me to more precisely dial in
air pressure to a lower pressure? Is so, any recommendations?

I started watching one of the video's on your site that talked about the different airbrushes and found that
the Badger bottom feed is probably best for covering large area and not so good at the fine detail so it
sounds like I should focus on getting the Master dual action working for this kind of work.

When I was using the Master I was playing around with the air flow knob on it...that got me thinking of why
would I need another inline regulator since I can fine tune it at the airbrush. However, when I was trying
to do this I would dial the air down and it would just stop spraying..I crank it up little by little and suddenly
it just explodes with paint...I adjust it back down a little and it stops spraying...I clean the top and start
cranking it up again until it explodes with paint...I crank it back down and start over..../sigh very frustrating.

So...maybe some pointers and tips would be helpful! Still have a lot to read on this forum...great stuff!

 

[Ronald art]

I am not familiar with the badger paints but "airbrush" ready is not always the case and for details you will need to reduce your paint and lower your psi a inline regulator or mac valve is always a good thing to have as you can regulate your PSI at the airbrush to suite the needs off the paints
it is important to now your paint and the reductions it needs a good way to find the "sweet spot"of your paint is to start with about 20 % reduction with the recommended reducer then test spray if the paint wont flow nice up your psi if it spiders lower your pressure there is no set psi as every airbrush is different as are the airbrush paints it is a matter of playing with it till you find the right combination

 

[Shorti]

I am not familiar with the badger paints but "airbrush" ready is not always the case and for details you will need to reduce your paint and lower your psi a inline regulator or mac valve is always a good thing to have as you can regulate your PSI at the airbrush to suite the needs off the paints
it is important to now your paint and the reductions it needs a good way to find the "sweet spot"of your paint is to start with about 20 % reduction with the recommended reducer then test spray if the paint wont flow nice up your psi if it spiders lower your pressure there is no set psi as every airbrush is different as are the airbrush paints it is a matter of playing with it till you find the right combination

Thank you Ronald. Is there a paint brand/type you recommend for this type of application? Metal and for the outdoors. I live in Arizona so some items will be subject to extreme heat. On reducers...I've been using water to reduce but I see there are products that you can buy. I suppose this depends on the paint but what is the best reducer?

 

[jord001]

Hey @Shorti , just had a quick read. I have used Badgers spectra-tex paint, which can be reduced with water. I'm not familiar with minitaire paint though, it may have a specific reducer, I do know it is made for the modelling/wargaming side of airbrushing however I don't know how they hold up in the outside elements..That may be a question you could ask Badger. They have a FB page, drop them a msg.
Anyway, like Ronald said, You would benefit from an inline mac valve. I have one made by grex, they are not cheap but it has lasted me for over 10 years, there are cheaper versions but they are a bit hit and miss.
I'm sure someone will chime in but I think you may be best off with Createx Wicked paint, It is multi surface inc metal and has its own reducer.
Every paint and every airbrush differ so again like Ron said you ideally need to learn the paint you will be using. Too thick and it doesn't flow, too thin and it spiders, especially on hard surfaces. This is where your paint reduction and air flow control come in. Its all part of the learning curve and will also depend on the heat and humidity where you live. Arizona I would think its very dry air. Even fluctuations of temp over different days changes the way the paint sprays. Again all part of learning your paint system.
I know there is frustration but this is all part of it. Even those of us who have been painting for years and know our paints and airbrushes still have trouble on occasion.
So have an experiment with reduction, spiders need less air or the paint needs to be thicker if you have your paint very thin, thicker paint needs more air or reducing if you get clogs. Its a delicate balance. Practice on a similar surface.
Lets see what our other wonderful peeps come up with, some of them use Wicked so will have much more info and advice on it. There may be a better paint. Who knows What i will say is don't give up. We got your back.

Lee

 

[markjthomson]

Lines are one of the foundational skills you need to learn. Fine lines come with time, practice and patience. On a hard surface it is the trickiest and there are so many variables, PSI, paint reduction, how much you pull the trigger back, speed of pass.... Some tips. 1. Practice every day... dots, lines and daggers. 2. Start light, you can always go darker... but there is no coming back from too dark or too much... 3. Use good quality airbrush specific paint. 4. Sometime the airbrush isn't the right tool for the job, a fine hairy brush might be the answer...

 

[Nessus]

The reason you're getting different results on metal vs on cardboard is because cardboard is absorbent. It grabs and soaks up the fluid (water, alcohol or other solvent) in the paint immediately as the paint hits. That doesn't happen on non-absorbent surfaces like metal, plastic, etc), so those surfaces will be much more sensitive to imbalances in paint or reduction vs airflow. Or more accurately: absorbent surfaces are very forgiving of such imbalances, to the point it obscures when they're inoptimal.

Was the gumming up happening inside or outside the nozzle? I.e. when you say "spray 3 inches then clean the tip", do you mean disassembling the tip to clean the inside, or just wiping off the tip from the outside?

If the latter, it might be an issue of technique. That sort of brush behavior can happen if you're accidentally getting the "air on, paint on, paint off, air off" sequence out of order. This is a super common "gotcha" for people new to airbrushing. It's really, really easy when releasing the trigger to unconsciously let it spring upward before it's seated fully forward, or to start pulling back before you're finished pressing down. This leads to excess paint being deposited on the tip of the needle or between the needle and nozzle opening, where it can dry between strokes, gumming the nozzle and/or producing nodules of dried paint on the needle. The solution is to just practice it into muscle memory, and to keep air on (trigger pressed) even when paint is off (trigger forward) between strokes.

What helped me was to keep my (empty and unconnected) airbrush on hand by my computer or TV, so I could practice the "air-on, paint-on, paint-off, air-off" sequence as a kind of fidget toy whenever watching netflix or whatever.

 

[Shorti]

The reason you're getting different results on metal vs on cardboard is because cardboard is absorbent. It grabs and soaks up the fluid (water, alcohol or other solvent) in the paint immediately as the paint hits. That doesn't happen on non-absorbent surfaces like metal, plastic, etc), so those surfaces will be much more sensitive to imbalances in paint or reduction vs airflow. Or more accurately: absorbent surfaces are very forgiving of such imbalances, to the point it obscures when they're inoptimal.

Was the gumming up happening inside or outside the nozzle? I.e. when you say "spray 3 inches then clean the tip", do you mean disassembling the tip to clean the inside, or just wiping off the tip from the outside?

If the latter, it might be an issue of technique. That sort of brush behavior can happen if you're accidentally getting the "air on, paint on, paint off, air off" sequence out of order. This is a super common "gotcha" for people new to airbrushing. It's really, really easy when releasing the trigger to unconsciously let it spring upward before it's seated fully forward, or to start pulling back before you're finished pressing down. This leads to excess paint being deposited on the tip of the needle or between the needle and nozzle opening, where it can dry between strokes, gumming the nozzle and/or producing nodules of dried paint on the needle. The solution is to just practice it into muscle memory, and to keep air on (trigger pressed) even when paint is off (trigger forward) between strokes.

What helped me was to keep my (empty and unconnected) airbrush on hand by my computer or TV, so I could practice the "air-on, paint-on, paint-off, air-off" sequence as a kind of fidget toy whenever watching netflix or whatever.

Thank you Nessus! So, Ive done a few things since my post and I am seeing better results. I ordered some Liquitex Slow Dri . That made a huge difference. Before the slow dri, I was not even able to practice lines/dots because it just clogged instantly. Now that that issue was solved, I need to work on my technique issues...which are extensive! I did just read about technique you mentioned "air on, paint on, paint off, air off". Definitely something I need to practice. I was able to accomplish the following last weekend on a plain white piece of paper (dont zoom in too close!):

 

[Tocean]

Hello Shorti the metal plants look great are you fabricating them? If these are going to be outside I'd also go with the wicked paint and put a clear coat over them, ext latex should be fine as a base coat but what primer did you use with the metal? Water based latex primers sometimes don't stick well to metals outside and can eventually bubble up/flake off. I'd do a test piece and stick it out in the elements see what happens. Look forward to seeing your plants

 

[Shorti]

Hello Shorti the metal plants look great are you fabricating them? If these are going to be outside I'd also go with the wicked paint and put a clear coat over them, ext latex should be fine as a base coat but what primer did you use with the metal? Water based latex primers sometimes don't stick well to metals outside and can eventually bubble up/flake off. I'd do a test piece and stick it out in the elements see what happens. Look forward to seeing your plants

Thanks Tocean,

Yes, I did all the metal work. What I ended up doing was primer them with enamel primer from spray can (before I knew I could primer with an airbrush), used the airbrush with external enamel paint for the color coat and the texturing then I followed up with enamel clear coat from spray can since I had already bought 2 cans. Big mistake on using the spray can clear...it was so inconsistent and a lot of splatters at times. I have been avoiding posting the final product because I am not happy with the final airbrush detail. Don't get me wrong...it looks great from a distance or by anyone that doesnt have an eye for the detail but I was hoping for better. I know, I know...practice, practice, practice and I'll get better. But I suppose I can not hold it back forever so here it is.....

 

[Tocean]

I think it looks great, the planter is a nice touch I'm my own worse critic too but sometimes you have to give yourself some praise, the fabrication is impressive upon itself. I suggest getting a mini gun and full size spray gun for stuff this big, harbor freight have decent starter guns for cheap price, I wouldn't primer through a airbrush, anyway keep at it

 

[jord001]

Looks like a nice job to me.

Lee

 

[Gordon Read]

Very cool. Great idea