Auto Air Vs E'tac

[Arqric]

Hi all, im still experimenting with paints and i still have doughts on whats the best paint..

Can anyone explain me what the pros and cons of each of the two and wish one you think its better and why.

Tks

 

[FirePanther]

Depending on what you want to do I guess... For me i am waiting for the new Wicked Illustration Colors, wich is hopefully coming this summer.

 

[OzAirbrush]

Well, this can well be my biased opinion but I prefer E'tac. My first real waterbased 'airbrush' paint was Auto Air, after trying to mix tube acrylics and other artist's paints it was a lot better, miles better.
I was still having some troubles with tip dry and trying to get the perfect mix to spray well, I ended up down the path of using windex and other concoctions...well, you may as well use solvent based paints if that's what you need to do to get it to spray well.
I then bought some E'tac from the US, put some in the cup and was blown away how easy it sprayed right from the bottle and how well it covered, I haven't looked back since and even became an Australian distributor/retailer for the paint I think it's that good.
Another thing I noticed and an good indicator of a good paint is how often you have to spray off to the side to clear your ab/tip, this is the biggest thing I noticed with E'tac I didn't need to do it nearly as much and I was wasting a lot less paint!

Ok, that's my personal story with AutoAir but I understand they have improved the formula (or the reducer formular) and it is a lot better, I have yet to compare it to E'tac since then though.
I have also heard good feedback about Wicked and from all accounts it's a lot better than AutoAir. I'm pretty sure that AutoAir is better suited to base coats and larger auto graphic applications but was being sold as an airbrush paint as well, Wicked may be a better choice(?).

The big factor that dictates whether a paint is better suited for an airbrush is the grind of the pigment and I know that E'tac uses a more expensive and finer grind than most if not any other brand, hence it's great spray-abilty, E'tac is designed specifically for an airbrush for fine art and graphics, not base coats. It may cost a little more but it covers better and oyu waste less, it's a good paint.

the only real way you will know is trying both, I know that's not as easy as it sounds but if you are going to take airbushing seriously and perhaps make a dollar out of it you owe it to yourseld to try as many paints that you can and make your final decision. They are all good, some just work better for some people than others

hth,
Mick.

 

[Mr.Micron]

Both are great paints , I too am looking forward to trying the Wicked Illustration Colors, But It mainly comes down to what you can afford and what you can make work for you the best. Being not everyone paints the same asking a question like this is mainly asking for what works for others the best.
Me, I have learned to use both , Which one do I like more ? Wicked for the most part less mixing to get some of the effects I am looking for. But that is just me. Some will swear by Golden, Some Com-art, But at the end of the day I will tell you to try them all , see for yourself what works for you and your style and budget.
I am now able to start trying uros , Yes HOK is at the top of the list to try but I also like some of the work being done with PPG and Sem. So I will being trying as many as I can afford.
And when I can find Trident here in the states I will also be giving that a go as well. But for now Trident is not in my price range.

 

[FirePanther]

I'm pretty sure that AutoAir is better suited to base coats and larger auto graphic applications but was being sold as an airbrush paint as well, Wicked may be a better choice(?).

Well thats at least my opinion, but have not tried others, so cant judge for myself on practical basis.
In the wicked line im almost only focused on the detail colors, because the are grinded down much further and thus finer spray patterns.
The normal wicked line is the same as autoborne, the detail line is the interesting part.

Giving that the detail line is also the transparant line you can use different approaces with the same paint. IF you can and will try out the buffered color method from Dru Blair. The new illustration line is also based on this technic, detail colors on steroids

 

[ProperlyStained]

Well thats at least my opinion, but have not tried others, so cant judge for myself on practical basis.
In the wicked line im almost only focused on the detail colors, because the are grinded down much further and thus finer spray patterns.
The normal wicked line is the same as autoborne, the detail line is the interesting part.

Giving that the detail line is also the transparant line you can use different approaces with the same paint. IF you can and will try out the buffered color method from Dru Blair. The new illustration line is also based on this technic, detail colors on steroids

Which paints have you tried?
The size of the pigment helps for finer spray patterns if you have an airbrush that is capable of fine spray patterns in the first place. The proper reduction is also a must, for me Detail right out of the bottle has a chunky spray pattern just like anything else from Createx through a .3 nozzle or even my .15 Infinity.
None of my Wicked Detail says anything about transparent. Did you read that somewhere, or does yours say transparent?

 

[FirePanther]

They are transparant according to Dru Blair, thats the whole idea of his buffered painting method. Also the grainy look suits transparant paints.

 

[ProperlyStained]

I've never talked to Dru, but my bottles of paint say nothing about transparent, anywhere. Nor can I find the word transparent on any wicked sites.


My opinion is based on the fact that I have transparent paints, they are nothing like any of the Wicked paints I have around the house. Transparent paint sprayed on anything dark, will at best, simply fade to a muddled version of the color on the bottle. You have to spray a white or light color down to even see them. Transparents are "see-through" like candies. My Wicked's cover black like an opaque paint should, nothing even close to transparent. What grainy look are you talking about? Where did you get your info?

What have you used personally?

 

[FirePanther]

You are getting WAY passed the point of meaning...

I said this:

Giving that the detail line is also the transparant line you can use different approaces with the same paint. IF you can and will try out the buffered color method from Dru Blair. The new illustration line is also based on this technic, detail colors on steroids

If if if...

Also I said:

Depending on what you want to do I guess...

Also you may want to read up on this, because this is the English version of it, but covers the basics of what I mean:
http://www.theairbrushforum.com/tips-tricks-airbrush/1363.htm

 

[ProperlyStained]

My point is Wicked Detail line is not a transparent line. If you tell people that if they spend their money on Wicked Detail, it will be transparent, they will be let down.

I have bottles all over, all opaque. Who's method you "choose" doesn't make my paint see-through.

As far as reading up on buffering, it was the only way I could paint at home, away from the shop, for the first six months.
I use opaque(Wicked Detail, AutoAir and Createx) and transparent(AutoAir, Createx) paint everyday, so there's no confusion on which is which, . Buffered color sounds fancy but, I had been doing it accidentally from day one because the only paint I had were true fire kits(one waterbased, one uro's). It's not a magic spell, you color white paint(for example) before spraying instead of coloring the white art with transparent paint. As I purchased more colors, I just kept doing what I started doing. I didn't hear the word "buffered" until I started looking in forums.

I only asked the questions I did to find out what you may have used yourself, it's better than reading a promotion from a company on there own paints. I haven't found any of the promises made by paint manufacturers to be as forthcoming as people in the trade.

I'm not trying to be rude, not at all, but I come here to get first hand info, I have access to all the literature in the world. It's proven almost useless in practice. And I have have been accidentally led astray by people who had only "heard or read" something, that told me like it was fact. That's time and money I can't get back.

Again just trying to clear the muddy water. Take care.

 

[FirePanther]

Its hard to get a right answer on what is transparant and what is candy anyway, one says its this other says its not. Its alot matter of opinions and the way you/they use them. Thats also why my first reaction to arqtic his question was: Depending on what you want to do I guess.

Different paints behave differently on different surfaces with different applications etc etc... Instead of answering the differences we are way off now haha But thats ok, we all learn from this, at least I do learn every day

I sprayed detail and every time I did go over it was darkening, so for me they where transparant. You maybe get more covering in one go and for you they are not. As what I have learned transparant colors go darker and opaque colors stay the same, maybe its just me thats possible. Still have to learn the basics first, doing that with autoborn black (same as normal wicked black).

Long story short, everyone has to find what works for them. Appreciate your time

 

[ProperlyStained]

It's more simple than you think... don't put too much into it.

Transparents are waterbased, "see-through" paint that act like dyes or food coloring, kinda. Candies are simply the solvent based equivalent. Both simply "tint" the light reflected back from the base color(s)
They don't show up on black, you absolutely have to put down an opaque base for them to have something to reflect light off of. Candy apple red, for example, is a red "dye" type paint that is ALWAYS sprayed over a lighter color, like silver or gold.


Opaque paints are like most paints, house paint is opaque. You can cover what's underneath with opaques, you can only tint the color with transparents(more layers will get darker and darker, like candies) Think dying Easter eggs with food coloring(transparent), draw something on them with a marking pen...dip em once and it's colored, dip them again and it's darker, but you can always see through the color to see what you have drawn. Now dip them in house paint(opaque), it covers everything, the drawing can no longer be seen, the former color is completely covered.

To be clear, it's not a matter of opinion, or preference of use, or what works for you...it's a matter of fact that the two(transparent and opaque) are completely different animals, chemically, mechanically, and their purpose. Yes, you hear people talk about using one or the other for painting portraits for example, but that should not be confused with them being at all the same.


Maybe this will help explain:

When doing true fire, it's almost always done on black to hide the overspray from the transparent paints. And, you first must paint the flames with opaque white or yellow and then spray transparent red over everything, the fire, the black background all of it. It only shows up where there is a light color to reflect back through. You then do another layer of opaque white, and spray transparent orange over the whole piece, it will color the white to orange, and darken the now red layer to a redish-orange. And so on... IF you try to paint flame licks with transparent red right onto the black, no flames will be seen. It's a lot like colored plastic used to make different colored lights, if you lay the plastic on a photo, the photo shows through, but it's tinted to the color of the plastic. If you put the same plastic film over a black table top, no light reflects back through the film so it looks black.

Again with waterbased, it's opaques and transparents... and with solvent based, it's base colors and candies.

 

[Cordyk]

I love this forum, I think that's one of the best explanations I have ever heard, thanks for that Properlystained. I am a lot more clued up now...I may even have a bash at some real flames now!!
Great job to everybody, this is why this forum is here and I think it's 'bang tidy'

 

[FirePanther]

Need no candy with wicked detail haha
http://www.createxcolors.com/contact/main.html

A possible explenation is that the paint was reduced with the transparant base, I sprayed with it but it was in premixed bottles already... So in my experience it was not opaque.
Will have to order a set of my own...

 

[drobbins12]

Thanks properly stains. That explanation is great. That's good information, I havnt really tried painting with opaque yet, or true flames, so that is good info to know. Thanks.


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[ProperlyStained]

Need no candy with wicked detail haha
http://www.createxcolors.com/contact/main.html

A possible explenation is that the paint was reduced with the transparant base, I sprayed with it but it was in premixed bottles already... So in my experience it was not opaque.
Will have to order a set of my own...

:dispirited:...... Let me try again... There seems to be some confusion that science is not the deciding factor here, but instead it's more of whatever you like to call it.
Almost all waterbased paint companies promote and sell there products as one of three things: Opaque, Transparent or Semi-opaque, (which is still an opaque, just with less solids), but it's not a dye like transparents so it can stand alone without a bright base under it.

So it's still two schools of thought: solid pigments or dyes... Opaques or Transparents

-AutoAir and Createx lines both have some of all three types.
-Regular Wicked colors are promoted as semi-opaque with a "very high pigment load". It still has solids in it, but less than their white and black which are called standard opaques...if you build up their other colors enough it will eventually have enough solids between you and the surface to reach an absolute color, like regular opaques.
Wicked Detail doesn't promote there paint to be one or another, there is no W D red opaque and a W D red transparent. But they do promote the fact that the pigment sizes are sheared down finer than there other paints.

To me the Wicked Detail black and white act like any opaque paint I've used. The colors seem weaker in a way, like they are over-reduced, almost semi-opaques. But they do give full coverage, even over dark bases.
Here's a field test:
If you spray your paint on a black background and it shows up vibrant...opaque. If it shows up as a muddy tone shift...transparent.
White backgrounds will show both. One reflects back the color of the pieces of pigment(opaque), one reflects back the color of the white paper through the "dye" in the paint(transparent). Both may look blue, but the eye sees blue for different reasons.

If you've read or heard somewhere that opaques spray solid and transparents build up in darkness, and that is what you are basing you thought process on...stop. If you grab some white paper, throw in some black opaque paint and lay down a nice wide, medium line. You can go over it a gain and it will darken, but that is not proof of transparency over opacity. It's simple coverage of the white base showing through.

And yes, Wicked Detail talks about using a transparent base or binder(but, most do. what else would you use to carry a color?),And the word "transparent" is in there but don't let that confuse you...it's chocked full of solid, colored, little pieces of pigment or "fillers", not dyes.(which makes it opaque) They even brag about small PIGMENT SIZE in the Detail line.
Transparents, do not have little solid pieces of colored particles in it, as a rule most are dyes or something similar.

Wicked does like to say in their adds for Detail, that the transparent binder can give it some of the characteristics of transparents when reduced enough, but over-reducing anything will make it so it doesn't give full coverage. It doesn't make the cow a horse just because it has a saddle and you can ride it to town.

I get the impression, FirePanther, that you believe there is some grey area to the subject, to each his own, and all that..."So in my experience it was not opaque"
Your bottle of Wicked Detail has pieces of pigment, extra finely ground, but still pieces of pigment, Wicked says so themselves. Which is probably, the deciding factor between opaque and transparent. It's not each painters opinion, it's what's in the product to reflect a color back to the eye.

Here it is from Createx themselves,
-Opaque: Solid colors with excellent coverage for use as base color.
-Transparent: Bright, vibrant colors which do not have fillers for opacity. Transparent colors work best over a white base or other bright color.

All Wicked Detail and regular Wicked have solid pigments for opacity or for lightfastness in thier transparents!

Edit:(after reading Mitch's post below this, I added the lightfastes part to the above statement so those who read this can have all the facts together. Wicked transparents are not true transparents, but they have found a way to make them act like it. They will work as promised.

I hope this finally clears things up for you.

 

[FirePanther]

But again you are not reading me right, nevermind.
Its not so black and white... You never made paint, you only use it.
And fillers... something different alltogether...

I have my thing you have yours, thats all fine with everyone. I wont discuss anymore.

 

[ProperlyStained]

:wink-new:, , fair enough.

 

[Madbrush]

:encouragement:

 

[airbrushtutor]

Hey guys - since we had so much fun here I thought i'd dredge it up again!
No, seriously. I spoke to a major distributor of createx products yesterday and he cleared some things up here about what Wicked paints actually are and gave me some insight as to their manufacture and it explained alot of what was being discussed back and forth in here.

I think after ProperlyStained's good explanation of what opaques (pigment based) and transparents (dye based) paints are, we all understand the difference. In terms of airbrush colors - this is exactly what opaque and transparent are.

The next thing to consider is the manufacture of the paints, now i have since learnt that Createx's Wicked paints are all pigment based. Even the transparent Wicked colors contain pigment, which by paint definition means they aren't transparents, but semi-opaque's.
So why is this? I asked.
The reason for this is to be able to provide a guarantee on the lightfastness of the paints. Because Wicked use pigments as the tinter in all of their paints they are able to provide a guarantee on the quality of the product and ensure the lightfastness of their paints.
It was further explained to me that there is no dye in existence that is completely lightfast - dyes will typically fade more than pigment. He said that some of the largest suppliers of 'candy' paints (who we won't name) can't offer any guarantee on their product! So while people are spraying their whole car in a candy color, there is no guarantee as to the effects the sun will have on the durability of their paintjob. In saying all this, I haven't seen candy colors fade myself, but it remains fact that dyes aren't as lightfast as their pigment counterparts.

Instead, to counter the effects of pigment based paints, wicked have milled their product to such a fine granule, that it can act as a transparent - they'll still achieve the same results, but because the paint is pigment based they can offer a guarantee for it's lightfastness.
You can also further reduce your paints to increase the transparent effects or you can add transparent base. :emmersed: hopefully this adds water to the fire.