Dagger stroke issues...help please

[Bingy99]

I am practising dagger strokes in order to attempt fur.

I seem to have two difficulties:

1. I can do them better if I turn air on and off as I do the dagger. If I try to keep air on, I seem to pull back too far and get too much paint and find it harder to do short daggers. Problem with air on and off is tip dry seems to occur more quickly and frequently.

2. I get a small blob at the end of the stroke when trying to do smaller and smaller ones. Not such an issue on the longer ones but as length control becomes tighter so the small blobs begin.

I hope my points make sense, and hope that you can all offer explanation and help.

Thanks

Bingy

 

[Mr.Micron]

Mainly it comes down to practice . I know that is not what you wanted to hear but it is true.

Now so we can try to help you more please gives us all the information..

What paint are you using?
How do you have it reduced?
what air pressure are you doing this at. ?
The more information you can add to this the better help we can offer.

 

[Bingy99]

I am using wicked paint and wicked detail. For practice mainly Detail Paynes Grey and Wicked Grey.

Reduction variety between 5:1 red/paint through to 10:1. I have tried most in between and even 12 / 14:1 I play with this to get the paint to flow as easy as possible.

I mostly use around 8-10psi (not too sure how acurate the gauge is) I have put pressure up in sort of 3 - 4 psi steps, but the higher I go the less control I feel i have and its easier to make a bad mistake. I do suffer occasionally with splatter as the paint kicks in, but its ok as long as I remember to clear a squirt before going onto the work piece.


I dont find it impossible to do daggers etc, but as soon as I require to control them to smaller, I seem to begin to get the issues.

I do understand that it does not come overnight, but it is frustrating, and I simply wonder what advise and techniques you can all suggest

 

[Mr.Micron]

Have you cleaned the airbrush?
I use Airbrush restorer made by Createx. and soak the nozzle in it. It sounds like you may have your nozzle partly clogged. I get spaltters when I shut paint off at time and find a good cleaning of the nozzle fixes it.
It sounds like reduction is fine.
Also try releasing the trigger a little sooner and see if that makes a difference. Being right now your muscle memory is mainly longer daggers it may be you are stopping as you let the trigger close.
I am just brain storming right now .

 

[wickedartstudio]

If you're not having any sprayabilty issues with the paint, then it sounds like you're stopping the airbrush prior to turning off the paint. Follow through with the stroke by continuously moving your brush past the point that you cut off the paint. Keeping the air on is essential for good control and it gives you one less thing to think about while you're practicing! If I misunderstood the issue disregard what I just said... Like Micron said, it all "mainly comes down to practice".

 

[ad fez]

Have you tried building up your trigger a little taller yet.I did and found it have me do much more control over my daggers and airbrushing as a whole

 

[Bingy99]

Built up the trigger

I have now cleaned the brush out with createx cleaner.

I think my issue is the link to paint and air
As i said i seem to be more in control if i am turning air on and off in the same motion as paint on and off

As soon as i try and concentrate on keeping air going, i seem to find it harder to bring right amount of paint in and out. Sometimes it works ok sometimes not.

It appears to be easier doing strokes horizontally and much harder going vertically.

I am reading and seeing on videos about angles of airbrush to paper and therefore spraying at an angle to the paper. Perhaps i am not quite understanding these principles

It probably is just a practice thing, but i am one of these people who likes to be able to get it right straight away, and it frustrates me when i cant work out what i may be doing wrong


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[ad fez]

it purely is practice and muscle memory mate, its quite tricky to do so many steps so quickly over such a small distance.... keep at it

 

[Tufty]

it purely is practice and muscle memory mate, its quite tricky to do so many steps so quickly over such a small distance.... keep at it

Muscle memory is a marvelous thing!I found dagger strokes really hard at first then one day with a blank sheet of paper I went at it and the advice I would give is think about the start and end point the muscle memory will do the direction bit and as for trigger control I honestly don't concentrate on as the finish point I'm thinking about is determining the trigger action. Does that sound right? Once I forgot about trigger movement it became second nature. Its really hard to put into words but hope this helps in some way. Also hen realised I was doing it and keeping air on continuously!

 

[jgny1]

Built up the trigger

I have now cleaned the brush out with createx cleaner.

I think my issue is the link to paint and air
As i said i seem to be more in control if i am turning air on and off in the same motion as paint on and off

As soon as i try and concentrate on keeping air going, i seem to find it harder to bring right amount of paint in and out. Sometimes it works ok sometimes not.

It appears to be easier doing strokes horizontally and much harder going vertically.

I am reading and seeing on videos about angles of airbrush to paper and therefore spraying at an angle to the paper. Perhaps i am not quite understanding these principles

It probably is just a practice thing, but i am one of these people who likes to be able to get it right straight away, and it frustrates me when i cant work out what i may be doing wrong


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

I think you are helping yourself here and don't realize it. Your comment "As soon as i try and concentrate on keeping air going" when you have the muscle memory and practice this part really becomes second nature, or automatic you don't have to think about this part you just do it. Leaves your brain clear to think about the rest of the stroke. I too find myself having issue with small dagger strokes so i'm with you, keep practicing.

 

[Tufty]

Jgny1 its not just me then, I thought it sounded weird what I put! It's hard to explain, I found what I was first concentrating on was exactly what I shouldn't have. As soon as you get your head around that it becomes second nature!

 

[jgny1]

no it is not just you, everything done large seems easy when you try to go small....not so good at least for me. I am going to try to do the fur on the tiger I am doing with small dagger strokes but that hasn't worked out so well just yet. :disturbed: Air on as soon as I get near the surface...I have that part down not it is getting the rest that will take the time.

 

[RebelAir]

I'm going to take a slightly different tact in my thoughts...Don't do dagger strokes

I find personally dagger strokes are pretty useless, some like to do them and they can look great but personally I don't see the point..The reason- Look at a single hair/fur..Notice how you cant actually see a taper to a hair except at the extreme end, for most part the hair is pretty much the same width along its length..To me it makes more sense to do a line. Doing a line in a daggers place frees up the thought process a bit and ensures you rarely damage the tip by dagger stroking..I call it sweeping but the action I use is more a continuos back and forward motion, spraying a small line in each direction and by leaving the air on and moving fast, ultimately it tapers off the tip for you anyway..Dagger strokes def have their uses in airbrushing but personally I dont feel fur/hair is one of them, something like grass is a better use of the dagger stroke as their is a definite tapering needed...Just a thought

Suss out the recent tut I did with doing some tiger fur, it kind of shows the method i generally utilize for fur/hair..Good luck..

 

[Bingy99]

RebelAir, I think I can see what your suggesting, and in fact that it what I find easier to do. Get a fine line going and keep it going whilst going back and forth at some speed. This gives a series of small lines like fur and certainly is easier in my book.

My trouble is only that I feel if I do not learn the correct techniques, then I will falter at some stage in not being able to do daggers and other bits when I need them.

I am sure there is no real right or wrong, but the basics are always worth learning.

 

[RebelAir]

M8 I wouldn't dare suggest that the dagger stroke is not a useful stroke and is def wrth learning, what I think I'm mainly pointing out is that I think its an overempathised need in airbrushing..I see it mentioned very regulary but rarely ever actually see the effect in someones artwork.. I honestly think I've used a true dagger style stroke about 3 times in about 12 years of airbrushing LOL I do use a similar technique called lifting lines which is a similar action but more for single point fades, so done a bit slower and at more height of the canvas, but I may be confused by what some consider a dagger stroke but generally I figured it was a stabbing motion towards the canvas from a tight distance and again m8 its rare I see the need of that effect, especially in fur as that's not how fur is shaped..With the fur idea I wouldn't suggest leaving your ink on as you go back and forward as you will loop the end of each fur stroke, its a pulsing action on the ink supply that I generally use, this just creates lots of lines, the longer the hair/fur, the longer you pulse the trigger basically, again not an easy stroke to get used to, but used in lots of detailing aspects of airbrushing..

There def is no right or wrong m8 in airbrushing, but personally I feel the dagger stroke should be way down the list of needs when learning as it is a confusing action for many, hard to master, damages needles and really doesn't need used that much LOL....but just my take m8, I personally don't feel its a basic need of airbrushing but if you feel its worth mastering, I'd be the last to suggest otherwise as any tool in your box may be used one day.. ..

 

[kchopp]

There def is no right or wrong m8 in airbrushing, but personally I feel the dagger stroke should be way down the list of needs when learning as it is a confusing action for many, hard to master, damages needles and really doesn't need used that much LOL....but just my take m8, I personally don't feel its a basic need of airbrushing but if you feel its worth mastering, I'd be the last to suggest otherwise as any tool in your box may be used one day.. ..

Thanks RebelAir,
As a newbe, I am also intimidate by the "dagger stroke". It takes a weight off my mind to know that it will come in time and I can move on without fully mastering it. By the way, I love your tiger video.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

I thought the dagger stroke was mainly an exercise in control. That is the way Airbrush Tutor puts it but if one wants to assign it a higher value, that is their prerogative just as there are no right or wrong techniques.

I thought I had the issue of cat tails at the end of a stroke solved. I just cleaned my tool and the dang things are back again. Micron sez its dirty diapers . . . . I'll take his word for it and clean again. Gad, all this cleaning is really getting tiresome. Using E'tac paint cut with water a little less than 1:1 should have put this issue to rest.

 

[Squishy]

The dagger stroke was the hardest thing for me to learn, and there is more than one way to skin a cat, and you can get around using it. But for me it is a very useful stroke. But boy did I use up all my best swear words learning it Lol.

I'd say it was a cleaning issue. It's pretty common when starting out to have issues like these until you get things dialed in, and some experience with your paint and conditions. Reducing 1:1 might not be enough, or - it might not be enough today. Conditions can have a big part to play, including heat and humidity etc. This is why there is no magic formula for paint/reduction/air ratios. Everyones may be slightly different depending on conditions, add a variety of paints, airbrushes, and compressors into the mix and there are too many variables. Even some colours within a paint range may behave differently depending on pigment. What worked yesterday may need some adjustment today. Sounds a pain but once you have a ratio that works for you, that becomes your base, then you can adjust on the fly to suit. It very quickly becomes second nature. When this happens you will find cleaning becomes easier and less of an issue.

 

[Mr. Magoo]

The dagger stroke was the hardest thing for me to learn, and there is more than one way to skin a cat, and you can get around using it. But for me it is a very useful stroke. But boy did I use up all my best swear words learning it Lol.

I'd say it was a cleaning issue. It's pretty common when starting out to have issues like these until you get things dialed in, and some experience with your paint and conditions. Reducing 1: might not be enough, or - it might not be enough today. Conditions can have a big part to play, including heat and humidity etc. This is why there is no magic formula for paint/reduction/air ratios. Everyones may be slightly different depending on conditions, add a variety of paints, airbrushes, and compressors into the mix and there are too many variables. Even some colours within a paint range may behave differently depending on pigment. What worked yesterday may need some adjustment today. Sounds a pain but once you have a ratio that works for you, that becomes your base, then you can adjust on the fly to suit. It very quickly becomes second nature. When this happens you will find cleaning becomes easier and less of an issue.

You summed that up real qood, Squish. iI keep referring to it as a repeat-ability issue; namely what works today doesn't tomorrow and its about to have me take a hammer to my AB . Yesterday we had nearly 100% humidity while today its clear and dry and I cannot make a nice fine line to save my life. Forgot about the weather facto and didn't put much credence in it. Now me no better.

BTW, I like your handle, think its cool. May I ask how you came buy it?

 

[JackEb]

'dagger strokes' / lines aren't just an exercise in control, if you watched Mitchs tutorial you'll know that dots and daggers/lines are the backbone of most if not all airbrushed work that is done. The length varies. Eyelashes, hair and fur are all dagger /line strokes of varying length and density.
They're useful for warming up too, and during the warming up process you can also tell how your paint is going to perform with todays conditions and modify to suit. I don't ever grab paint and start on a 'canvas' I always grab a scrap of what ever I'm working on and test the paint and stretch that finger muscle

I've never had a 'need' to reduce my Etac through the micron, I just don't pull right back on the trigger, so I only get minimal paint through.

Not sure what you mean by cat tails at the end of the stroke, if youre refering to more paint that intended at the end of the line then you're either not shutting the air off properly or as has been suggested to you, there is crud in the nozzle.
because you've used wicked in there before, it could just be a bit of that hanging around, use some createx 'restorer' to get rid of it. the createx has a pain for clogging in my short journey. Don't forget the restorer is re-usable so its economical and one of the best things I ever bought to go with my createx collection.

Tip dry is normal for a newbie, we concentrate so hard at keeping the air on, concentrating 'where' the trigger is when the paint is released that we spend more time with the air on than actually spraying paint, so any paint on the needle dries and caused issues.

a babies toothbrush / small sponge or in my case, latex make up remover pads cut in half then dipped in cleaner / water is good for removing paint from the needle. everyone gets frustrated in the beginning but it does all slowly start to make sense and you have less issues.