H&S 2024 Line
- Thread starter rockanon
- Start date
rockanon
Needle-chuck Ninja
I started using Mr. Surfacer 1000 and 1500 lacquer-based acrylic primer (with the Mr. Hobby leveling thinner). It's a very nice product for a fine grit surface before painting.
tatocorvette
Detail Decepticon!
Totally de-railing (pun intended) this thread, but Enamels are the greatest invention since.... lacquers!
It is most likely because I've been airbrushing enamels for over 30 years, but to me it is very hard to screw up an enamel airbrush job. Acrylics on the other hand, for me, are 75% frustration, 20% black magic and 5% luck.
I truly miss Model Master enamel paints.
The only downside to enamels is the long time it takes to fully cure. Lacquers rule for flashing within seconds.
Thanks,
Ismael
It is most likely because I've been airbrushing enamels for over 30 years, but to me it is very hard to screw up an enamel airbrush job. Acrylics on the other hand, for me, are 75% frustration, 20% black magic and 5% luck.
I truly miss Model Master enamel paints.
The only downside to enamels is the long time it takes to fully cure. Lacquers rule for flashing within seconds.
Thanks,
Ismael
rockanon
Needle-chuck Ninja
So I learned today the finish on the black squidmar uses a black chrome with laser etching for the graphic work. So it's unlikely anything will ever "rub off the artwork"
I left a comment on a video inquiring about it and several H&S people jumped all over the comment
I left a comment on a video inquiring about it and several H&S people jumped all over the comment
thelittlesheep
Double Actioner
Hello All,
Excuse me for charging into this thread, I am new. Been using the 2023 H&S Evolution for about 3 months now?
Tried the 2024 and I was actually not impressed. The things I wanted to see improved was the ease to create dots with such precision, have a consistent moment the paint goes out from along the needle. At that time, my 2023 Evo was not modded at all. Just stock. So, I did not sense much difference between the 2023 and 2024. Also, because I had a lot to learn as a beginner of course.
But things changed: when I added 2 teflon rings into my 2023 evo. Wow, that is nice. Maybe I am now tuned to the 2023 evo, and it is much more capable than the 2024 Evo stock version in my hands. I even thought about buying a Iwata Eclipse or Iwata Micron because it , I heard, could do fine lines with easy. But now I can do that with my H&S Evo 2023. See my beginner lines. Excuse me for it. Just a quick test, after I added 2 rings.
I was stunned really.
Was really happy that my local airbrush retailer, gave me advice to hang on the Evo 2023 and add the 2 rings. That is a honest and good sales person , aka airbrush professional...
Does anyone own Evo 2023 with 2 rings mod and the 2024 evo? Is it truly much better still? Or a bit better?
I wonder.
Excuse me for charging into this thread, I am new. Been using the 2023 H&S Evolution for about 3 months now?
Tried the 2024 and I was actually not impressed. The things I wanted to see improved was the ease to create dots with such precision, have a consistent moment the paint goes out from along the needle. At that time, my 2023 Evo was not modded at all. Just stock. So, I did not sense much difference between the 2023 and 2024. Also, because I had a lot to learn as a beginner of course.
But things changed: when I added 2 teflon rings into my 2023 evo. Wow, that is nice. Maybe I am now tuned to the 2023 evo, and it is much more capable than the 2024 Evo stock version in my hands. I even thought about buying a Iwata Eclipse or Iwata Micron because it , I heard, could do fine lines with easy. But now I can do that with my H&S Evo 2023. See my beginner lines. Excuse me for it. Just a quick test, after I added 2 rings.
I was stunned really.
Was really happy that my local airbrush retailer, gave me advice to hang on the Evo 2023 and add the 2 rings. That is a honest and good sales person , aka airbrush professional...
Does anyone own Evo 2023 with 2 rings mod and the 2024 evo? Is it truly much better still? Or a bit better?
I wonder.
Attachments
RK Ink and Focus
Mac-Valve Maestro!
Welcome to the forum and I am glad you have got your evo 2023 tuned to where you want it!
I have not tried either brush but I would if the opportunity arose. May I ask where you fit the extra teflon ring?
thelittlesheep
Double Actioner
let me take a picture...moment: please look at the attached. I made a picture of the original Teflon rings as well.
You can place the ring on a hard surface, then press the middle part onto the hole of the ring, wriggle a bit, until it goes in. Repeat for both.
Edit: I measured the thickness of the ring. It is exactly 1 mm per piece.
You can place the ring on a hard surface, then press the middle part onto the hole of the ring, wriggle a bit, until it goes in. Repeat for both.
Edit: I measured the thickness of the ring. It is exactly 1 mm per piece.
Attachments
thelittlesheep
Double Actioner
Above lines were sprayed with the following:
Createx airbrush colors, Opaque, thinned 1:0.6, that is 1 part paint is 0.6 part distilled water. I used a schmincke precision dropper.
To insert drop by drop of paint into an container or airbrush. It just works better, as I can precisely know the amount of paint and water mixed. About 11 PSI on normal A4 paper.
Createx airbrush colors, Opaque, thinned 1:0.6, that is 1 part paint is 0.6 part distilled water. I used a schmincke precision dropper.
To insert drop by drop of paint into an container or airbrush. It just works better, as I can precisely know the amount of paint and water mixed. About 11 PSI on normal A4 paper.
DaveG
Airbush Analyst
I have several of the pre-2024 Harder and Steenbeck brushes, as well as the 2024 Ultra and Evolution. I have also looked into that two ring mod in depth. Before I go any further, I want to say that what is important is that you have become more comfortable with the brush. You are starting to achieve the results you are after, and are feeling more confident with the brush in hand. We all develop a "feel" for certain brushes that just seem to work the way we like to work. That feel isn't the same for every person with every brush. I'd also say if the brush is working the way you want it to the way you have it set up - don't change a thing!
That said - the two ring "fix" is largely a placebo effect modification. We often think we fixed something simply because we changed it. The premise is that there is a gap between the auxiliary lever and chucking guide, as observed while looking down into the brush from the top with the trigger is at rest. I know that the photos I have here are the Infinity, but the results are the same between the two brushes - 1) is the back or auxiliary lever, 2) is the needle chucking guide, and 3) is what looks like a gap between the two.
Looking at the parts from the side the way they actually sit in the brush, you can see the back lever is actually already in contact with the chucking guide at the bottom.
There is nothing within the brush that would prevent the chucking guide from moving forward when the trigger is at rest that would cause it to create a physical gap between the parts. If the trigger moves, the chucking guide (and thus the needle move). In the case of the Infinity that is photographed here, the theory behind the back lever shape was to make the needle movement progressive. Very fine at first, then more aggressive a little further into the pull back. The Evolutions is not as dramatic in progression, as the arch of contact between the parts is consistent.
If looking at the photographs from the side - if we are to imagine the two washers in place between the back lever and chucking guide, the only thing they would really accomplish is to lengthen the larger diameter of the chucking guide - but, not really alter the relationship between the two...
Trust me, I have indulged myself with TONS of modifications that I felt improved a brushes performance, only to go back and find that there was nothing to "fix" in the first place. Sometimes it may take me months to realize I was over optimistic in any perceived improvement...
RK Ink and Focus
Mac-Valve Maestro!
Interesting idea and it is great you are happy and improving with the brush. Does it change anything such as raise the spring rate or have an affect on friction if it is not affecting whether it contacts the trigger or not?
Raising the spring rate may be infact leaning towards the design reasoning of the weight of the trigger of the new ultra.
Raising the spring rate may be infact leaning towards the design reasoning of the weight of the trigger of the new ultra.
DaveG
Airbush Analyst
OOops, I should have added that things that did change on the pre-2024 Evolution with the 2 ring mod are the spring pre-load, and potentially the friction coefficient the back lever and chucking guide.. While this alters the feel at the trigger, it does not actually alter performance.
hahaha, Richard - I was typing while you posted
hahaha, Richard - I was typing while you posted
RK Ink and Focus
Mac-Valve Maestro!
The altered preload i think may give that beginner feedback feel that Warrick was talking about on the ultra. This mod may help users looking for that in a brush.
I agree that there would be no other gain such as altering trigger geometry or anything that would make paint initiate or progress any differently.
I have read quite a few comments about the pre 2024 evo and infinity having identical bodies? Is there any truth in that?
DaveG
Airbush Analyst
I don't have a pre-2024 Evolution here to compare with... I can say the new 2024 Evolution is 3mm shorter than the current Infinity, and the internal machining varies.
thelittlesheep
Double Actioner
Well, you say it does not matter and it is completely placebo. Then please explain:
- It is extremely difficult to draw straight , ultra thin lines with standard evolution. I tried many times. Then there is paint, then nothing, then it draws striped lines. Very inconstant. Even the moment paint goes out of the nozzle is sometimes yes, sometimes nothing. Yes the internals are cleaned.
But, after the 2 rings this happens: thin lines suddenly absolutely no problem. I can draw the finest lines I want, any time i want. Timing improved by a lot. These lines have never been soooo thin. And I can do it. time after time....look at my test paper attached. No way i could have done that before the 2 rings.
You call this placebo? Airbrush technique does not improve suddenly because of placebo. Either you can, or you cannot. Everything improved suddenly, that cannot be placebo. Or luck. Especially because I tried to many times to get it right. I know , the standard Evo has a very strange way of spraying paint or not, but if you force it, it suddenly sprays a lot! in that case I have to spray on paper, then back onto the art piece to be sure it sprays normally. After 2 rings, no problem. problem gone. Placebo right?
RK Ink and Focus
Mac-Valve Maestro!
It is working for you and thats a good thing, keep at it. I think the change you feel has improved the brush for you is the teflon giving less resistance in the movement of the trigger over the guide (smoothing the action and giving you better feedback) and a higher spring rate which may also be giving you better feedback and possibly more controllable for you at this stage of your airbrushing adventures. Thats why i think you are able to get a better performance from the brush.
DaveG
Airbush Analyst
My guess would be that you are spending more time actually working with the brush. You are developing muscle memory, and refining your feel for paint initiation. You altered the amount of spring pre-load, thus altering the "feel" of the trigger which evidently fits your particular style better. I think you take the term "placebo" as meaning that I am saying the brush is not working better for you... People that take placebo prescriptions often get better, right? I started my post by stating pretty clearly - no matter what followed, if the brush is working well for you, don't change a thing!
Just as a matter of info, I did explain it... pretty thoroughly.
I know you are new here, and don't know me from Adam. Take a minute and get to know the type of information I provide, and the experience I base it off of. If you don't feel like I know what am talking about, just ignore it...
Hello everyone!
This is my first post here.
I am sorry for its length.
I had my first airbrush in the early 90s and it was a disappointing or should I say traumatic
experience.
I had spent all my savings at that time to get
a crappy external mix (?) piece of junk and a bottle
of canned air only to discover that I would
never get any decent results with that brush
and I would have to spend all my pocket money
each time the can was empty.
So I put it in a drawer and kept painting
my scale models with regular brushes
forgetting all this airbrush stuff.
I grew up, stopped building scale models
but those repressed feelings I had, came to the surface and here I am with a small collection of airbrushes
including a regular
and a Giraldez Infinity among others,
and now I am waiting for the evolution 2024
2in1 to arrive.
My only complaint from the H&S is the trigger response.
The Giraldez did not seem to change that.
The build quality, finish, ease of cleaning and
modularity are great.
Reading all these comments and watching a few reviews, I get the impression that the
trigger action has been addressed with the new 2024 models so I hope that I will not be
disappointed by the new Evo.
In the older H&S designs I have noticed a few
things that just don't look right.
The first one is the position of the cam or
excenter as H&S like to call it.
When the trigger is not pressed it is
positioned upwards. Only when the trigger is
pressed and pulled back a lot, then it moves
downwards and as long as the trigger is
pressed it stays there.
As soon as the trigger is released the cam is
pushed upwards again by the pear shaped
part of the trigger that the needle runs through.
If I just press the trigger and pull it slightly
back the cam does not locate itself to its
lowest position.
The second thing I have noticed is that when
the trigger is slightly pulled back the needle
moves but not on axis. I have tried to address
it by using a thin clear tape to reduce the play
of the needle chuck but it is not a permanent
solution.
I could try to address the cam position issue
but in order to do that i would need to remove
the trigger button.
Does anyone knows if the trigger button is
press fit in the Infinity?
In the evolution 2024 it is mentioned that the
trigger is machined from one piece.
The last observation I have made is that in
every other airbrush (iwata, badger, mr. hobby)
the nozzles sit almost flat to the aircap.
In the H&S airbrushes that I have the nozzle
protrudes a couple tenths of a mm from the
aircap and my guess is that this might affect
the responsiveness of the airbrushes and the
lack of predictability and repeatability when
I am trying to get fine details, dots etc.
For this situation I could experiment a little
without ruining either the nozzle or the cap
with a thin layer of copper or brass sheet
increasing the length of the aircap just to
make the nozzle flush to it.
This is my first post here.
I am sorry for its length.
I had my first airbrush in the early 90s and it was a disappointing or should I say traumatic
experience.
I had spent all my savings at that time to get
a crappy external mix (?) piece of junk and a bottle
of canned air only to discover that I would
never get any decent results with that brush
and I would have to spend all my pocket money
each time the can was empty.
So I put it in a drawer and kept painting
my scale models with regular brushes
forgetting all this airbrush stuff.
I grew up, stopped building scale models
but those repressed feelings I had, came to the surface and here I am with a small collection of airbrushes
including a regularand a Giraldez Infinity among others,
and now I am waiting for the evolution 2024
2in1 to arrive.
My only complaint from the H&S is the trigger response.
The Giraldez did not seem to change that.
The build quality, finish, ease of cleaning and
modularity are great.
Reading all these comments and watching a few reviews, I get the impression that the
trigger action has been addressed with the new 2024 models so I hope that I will not be
disappointed by the new Evo.
In the older H&S designs I have noticed a few
things that just don't look right.
The first one is the position of the cam or
excenter as H&S like to call it.
When the trigger is not pressed it is
positioned upwards. Only when the trigger is
pressed and pulled back a lot, then it moves
downwards and as long as the trigger is
pressed it stays there.
As soon as the trigger is released the cam is
pushed upwards again by the pear shaped
part of the trigger that the needle runs through.
If I just press the trigger and pull it slightly
back the cam does not locate itself to its
lowest position.
The second thing I have noticed is that when
the trigger is slightly pulled back the needle
moves but not on axis. I have tried to address
it by using a thin clear tape to reduce the play
of the needle chuck but it is not a permanent
solution.
I could try to address the cam position issue
but in order to do that i would need to remove
the trigger button.
Does anyone knows if the trigger button is
press fit in the Infinity?
In the evolution 2024 it is mentioned that the
trigger is machined from one piece.
The last observation I have made is that in
every other airbrush (iwata, badger, mr. hobby)
the nozzles sit almost flat to the aircap.
In the H&S airbrushes that I have the nozzle
protrudes a couple tenths of a mm from the
aircap and my guess is that this might affect
the responsiveness of the airbrushes and the
lack of predictability and repeatability when
I am trying to get fine details, dots etc.
For this situation I could experiment a little
without ruining either the nozzle or the cap
with a thin layer of copper or brass sheet
increasing the length of the aircap just to
make the nozzle flush to it.
RK Ink and Focus
Mac-Valve Maestro!
Have you had a pre 2024 in your line up before Dave? Is it a brush you have had and moved on? I am not sure how many models of the evolution there have been, was that the first? I believe it was a pretty important brush for Harder and steenbeck and had been the backbone of their sales before the infinity.
DaveG
Airbush Analyst
I have had a couple, along with several Infinitys - I could never come to terms with the feel of the trigger, so sold them, regretted it, and repurchased - especially the Infinity. I do think the older Evolution body was the same as the Infinity - with the mid section, and trigger parts being where the difference was between the Evo and Infinity - but, can't say 100%.
I have been working on some stuff, and now have the Infinity trigger working as well as just about anything else I have - with the exception of the new Evolution. That may be the best trigger I have ever worked with the way I have it setup now.
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