Methyl Ethyl Ketone (butanone)...or MEK

G

GypsyGoldAu

Guest
Sorry if this is discussed elsewhere, as my site search (unless deeply buried) failed to reveal an answer to my query.

As an extension of my earlier thread [ http://www.airbrushforum.org/threads/anyone-used-copper-conductive-paint.16669/ ], i am wondering if anyone has experience flowing MEK through their AB's? (*Also known as Plumbers Priming Fluid)

I ask as i will need to use MEK as a part/all carrier of the carbon base of my conductive paint. I need to use the MEK when using high surface gloss plastics etc as it gives the surface "grip" so i end up with better adhesion for further "plating" processes.

Does anyone know what if any concerns i should have, and the reasons why?
Can anyone with AB & MEK experience chime in with their viewpoint?

Additionally, does anyone know if i can obtain a teflon kit for my Iwata Neo, as i'm led to believe OEM they are rubber?

Would similar models interchange those parts?

Thanks for your time to read, and hopefully respond...

Cheers
Gypsy
 
To be honest m8 I haven't but saying that I probably wouldn't LOL. Not through a good gun anyway, go buy some supercheap auto airbrush or mini touch up gun or a cheap gun that is fully teflon and maybe experiment with that..Another option is to maybe brush it on then use a standard airgun to blow and flatten it off? i'd be worried bout the chrome and the like over extended use but if its a once off maybe worth giving a try..Figured it wouldn't eat plastic to bad though mark, isnt it designed to prime plastic prior to glue application? Again dunno the ins and outs of it to well in airbrushing use, only used it when plumbing LOL but it is used in lots of diff products involving plastics and vinyls and is basically just a solvent..Is that the only solvent the copper spray suggest?
 
All I know about MEK was when I was 16 I had my first job where we were re-painting a huge bridge. A painter walked by me on the catwalk carrying a bucket half full of MEK and I got a whiff of it. I asked him what it was and he said that it would give you cancer of the mouth, the lungs the blood, pretty much every part of your body, but "It gets you high AF!"
 
RebelAir said:
Figured it wouldn't eat plastic to bad though mark, isnt it designed to prime plastic prior to glue application?
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I have used this stuff for paint stripping and the one thing you keep it away from is plastics... one of the most agressive plastic eaters known to man. Except PE...
 
Thanks for the responses folks, and yes i am aware of the properties and have safeguards in place. Try looking at some of the chemicals in electro-plating lol. (it was the very 1st industry to be "regulated" in the US in the late 30's/early 40's). The worst is chrome, which i don't bother with due to brush--plating not immersion plating, and treat the rest with respect.

I also have need to use hydrofluric acid in another of my hobbies, so be advised i do have 'handling' experience and precautions in place. (PPE, Extinguisher, Vacuum Hood, Respirator etc.)

I will be using it as the carrier of the carbon based conductive 'paint', but normal carbon base i make is water based, and won't adhere to the surface. Using MEK will 'etch' the surface of the item while drying, and allow the paint to attain better surface tension, hence better plating finish. So yes RebelAir, your thinking is correct in it's use.

This will only be used on small items that will be finished off with decorative gold plating. Recall mums or grans 'best' flowery tea set with the gold flash around the edge.

I'm looking to do a similar thing to that, but using a different platform, and technique, to project that 'highlighted' look.

I do have a cheap gun here but i imagine it will also have rubber seals. (It's a Voilamart model as part of a package i bought, and got shoved into a drawer and forgotten)

Anyone have an idea if i can rekit out the Neo with teflon?

**Note: Calling my conductive coating a 'paint' is a stretch as it is just a mix of lab grade carbon and water. Others use (with a bristle brush) gum or white builders glue in diluted proportions. Some also make it with fingernail polish varnish. Yet on high gloss ABS for eg; even the lacquers and glues separate in short order once the plating has been laid down. MEK can possibly overcome this issue.

Regards
Gypsy
 
only good use of MEK is to make a mixture for drag racing . But never through an airbrush or spraygun ..
MEK will eat through the rubber that is what it does .
 
Thanks Mr M., so how does teflon hold up against it?

Gypsy
 
Isn't teflon essentially just another type of plastic..if MEK etche's plastic then perhaps it may etch the teflon? have used plumbers priming fluid a lot before, I assumed its the stuff you put on plastic stormwater pipe, so sorry if I'm talking about a diff product LOL cause now I'm worried about my stormwater drains LOL..maybe the priming fluid I used isn't MEK (its red stuff and does smell pretty funky), will double check later when up the shed..Don't want my recent plumbing adventure plumbing in my new tank to dissappear LOL, was a lot of work :)

As its kinda a very different application to the norm I doubt many will have a lot of direct experiance..Ya may need to be the guinea pig on this one..let us know how it goes..
 
Ah well, that just means more work for the same finish. Yet another experiment ahead now, bristle brush the MEK on then shoot the EC coating with the AB.

Thanks for the feedback folks.

I hope it didn't appear i was being contrary....chalk it down to not knowing what i didn't know.

Gypsy
 
RebelAir said:
Isn't teflon essentially just another type of plastic..if MEK etche's plastic then perhaps it may etch the teflon? have used plumbers priming fluid a lot before, I assumed its the stuff you put on plastic stormwater pipe, so sorry if I'm talking about a diff product LOL cause now I'm worried about my stormwater drains LOL..maybe the priming fluid I used isn't MEK (its red stuff and does smell pretty funky), will double check later when up the shed..Don't want my recent plumbing adventure plumbing in my new tank to dissappear LOL, was a lot of work :)

As its kinda a very different application to the norm I doubt many will have a lot of direct experiance..Ya may need to be the guinea pig on this one..let us know how it goes..
Click to expand...
Teflon is also known as PTFE... very similar to PE in quality and very inert. Plastic stormwater pipe is commonly PVC and MEK is perfect for a weld joint. The red primer stuff is MEK based I think. We used teflon seals in our spray guns and MEK is the industry standard cleaning fluid. I mean I've personally used thousands of liters of it.
 
I know teflons pretty inert m8 and has extremely good heat resistance of course, worked in refining for years and teflons quite heavily used in that arena for seals and chemical resistance and may indeed be fine running the MEK through, teflon I know well..As mentioned though, dunno much about MEK though besides the use gypsy mentioned above and besides a slight roughness after its applied it doesn't seem that aggressive, dulls and etches it off is about all but perhaps its a weaker version as you mentioned from the purer glue used after, I assumed the teflon would prob handle it fine but would still have reservations over extended use as Mr.Micron added but perhaps its all good as you mention..Not doubting your experience though with it, mines pretty limited..But I thought its not so much used for a welding joint in the application of stormwater, but more as a degreaser/solvent to clean it for the glue then used after which i am aware is essentially a strong solvent anyway? Maybe its all the same thing, just different strengths?..Just me m8, I like to know things I don't know so am also trying to learn a bit as we go LOL, thus the questions..too lazy to go up the shed and read the bottles LOL
 
markjthomson said:
Teflon is also known as PTFE... very similar to PE in quality and very inert. Plastic stormwater pipe is commonly PVC and MEK is perfect for a weld joint. The red primer stuff is MEK based I think. We used teflon seals in our spray guns and MEK is the industry standard cleaning fluid. I mean I've personally used thousands of liters of it.
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Well where I work we use MEK for a lot of different thing and one day one person left an teflon stirring in a pot of MEK and it softened it to a point that you could form it. this was .5x.5 x8" long solid piece of teflon. That is why I said over long usage it will soften it .
 
Mr.Micron said:
Well where I work we use MEK for a lot of different thing and one day one person left an teflon stirring in a pot of MEK and it softened it to a point that you could form it. this was .5x.5 x8" long solid piece of teflon. That is why I said over long usage it will soften it .
Click to expand...
Actually, now I think about it, you all might be right. The teflon seals we used did crap out and the ones on the guns were leather. Hmmm, can't edit my posts now...
 
markjthomson said:
Actually, now I think about it, you all might be right. The teflon seals we used did crap out and the ones on the guns were leather. Hmmm, can't edit my posts now...
Click to expand...

You actually can edit your posts now (should you need to);)

Where I come from MEK is referred to as "Cellulose thinner" or "Special thinner" we used a lot of it years ago for special primers such as chlorinated rubber and some others, it was also used a lot in the auto industry before they started acrylic auto paints, I do know the spray guns we used back then had leather seals instead of rubber, but as Herb says, leaving even these seals in MEK caused them to break down, over exposure caused them to swell and then when they dried out the just cracked making useless, but just as with acetone and any other aggressive medium, after cleaning enough flushing with generic cleaners should suffice.

I personally think if we're working with anything that could be a problem for seals, the sensible approach is to just keep plenty of spares on hand, back in the day we carried a box full of seals and often did job jobs that required new seals everyday, if you know it's going to happen you simply prepare for it, I know I'm good at busting needles so obviously I keep spares, lol

Incidentally I actually have an antique set of hammered hole punches which was made for making leather seals, I got from my father in law who was a ships diesel fitter and used the to make gaskets for engine and boiler piping among other stuff, I have a lot of joy with during my modelling phase and they are damn handy to have around, the smallest is too big for airbrush seals though.

20161106_194710.jpg
 
If recall serves me right, we used to use a mek based product in furniture repair, to make our own lacquers out of shellac.
It worked better than acetone as it has a higher evaporation rate and evaporates after application leaving a harder and more robust finish.

This was by a career French Polisher who made his own colors and reducers....as to paint reducers, all i recall was the 1x gallon tins we used in the auto repair would have you seeing birdies when there was none if you got a nose full....

Mind you, this is all back in the 60's and 70's....and many things/products have changed.

As noted, i will preserve my AB and hand apply the MEK,...then AB the conductive paint over it to dry. It is also used in the electroplating industry for pre-treatment cleaning, but more-so for tank plating processes in comparison to brush plating.

Perhaps i should use a MEK based plumbers glue instead of the glue prep as this may also assist in the surface binding?...

Looks to me like another experiment...

Gypsy
 
In the modelling world, MEK is used a lot to solvent-weld polystyrene or ABS parts. There are a few different solvents used, but probably the most common active ingredients in solvent-type plastic cements are MEK and Dichloromethane. Long time builders eventually stop ponying up for the tiny bottles sold in hobby stores, and just buy full tins of the straight stuff from the paint thinner isle at the hardware store instead. In my experience, dichloromethane makes a better solvent weld than MEK, as it penetrates the plastic more aggressively, then evaporates out faster. Makes for stronger bonds that set and cure quicker, in other words.

So dichloromethane may be an alternative, though it may be tough to spray as it's so volatile I can actually imagine it flashing off almost completely while in transit between the gun tip and the substrate.

From what I can gather searching on teflon solubility, there aren't any solvents that actually dissolve Teflon. PTFE polymer is based on fluorine bonds, so it's pretty nigh PH-proof. However some solvents will soak into it, causing temporary swelling and softening which could make mechanical wear easier.

No idea what the rubber o-rings are made of. Probably polyurethane or neoprene, I'd guess, neither of which I'd expect so survive long against any of the solvents mentioned.

Leather O-rings is an interesting idea. Wonder if that's something you could DIY, with the right punch tool?
 
Thanks for the response Spider, and for the info. i was unaware of.

I'll start with trying the above first, and if results unsatisfactory, i will look at your option as an alternate path.

I'm not even sure how much demand will require this process anyway, so time is on my side.

Gypsy
 
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