Muddy!

T

Toot

Guest
I think I am starting to understand what people mean by 'muddy'.
I have had a go at fire - not true fire, more a figurative-based-corporate-aimed-non-realistic-true-fire-styled-rendition of flames. (lol)

This is my first 2 goes....I really thought AA candies would 'pop' under a clear.
I cleared it (first time I ever tried that as well) and it just looks like crap.
Obviously as this is my second time at painting fire I need to do heaps more work but I was really annoyed at the lack of lustre.
I don't think Wicked or AA paints will allow 'popping' fire to be done. (yes, i know people have done it...they are pros...I am but a n00b..and would they do a car using water based?)

So, maybe if I want to paint fire, whether it is 'true' or not I need to get some solvent based paint?
And same with the 1K clear. 3 coats and it really done nothing.

Overall quite disappointed but also happy that I actually stopped watching videos and sprayed some paint, lol....=)
R Last.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5s9illHQlc
 
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Mr.Micron

Royal pain in the air hose
Admin
To do fire in AA take a lot of practice to get the layering right. Why because AA or any waterbased paint has no true candy ,
Urethane paint is the only ones that do have a true candy that does not muddy up the more layers you add.
With AA you pretty much have to nail it in a few layer and you can not shoot you lighter colors over the darker ones.

Check out Coast Airbrush they offer a small true fire set in House of Kolor. You will not regret it.I did not.
 

JTairbrush

Gravity Guru
You can do some killer realistic fire with water based paints. It's just that water based is different than solvent based in the way you paint fire. Not better or worse, just different. Look at Richard Markham's realistic fire. He uses Auto Air and produces a really good end result and he only uses 3 colors. I've been playing around with Auto Air for a while now and it does take some practice to get decent fire. I hope you don't think you're going to buy a HOK fire kit and get instant killer fire. It takes just as much practice with solvent based paints as water based paints to airbrush great fire. Here's a sample of some fire that I've painted with Auto Air. Maybe not the best fire, but I've received many compliments on it.

IMG_0106.jpg
 

CALz AyrWKz

Air-Valve Autobot!
Looks good JT. I have seen other nice works of true fire painted with waterbased paints too. It can be done, with practice.
 

Mr.Micron

Royal pain in the air hose
Admin
I did nor say it could not be done, Just not using the way they do with urethane candies.
Dru Blair does killer realistic flame using Wicked paint. Blake McCully aka Crosseye does all his work with Autoair. Can be done But it is a lot more than just white /candy/white /candy .
Granted I am in no way a tru fire expert But I just find it easier with urethane paints and candies. Than with water based , Plus the depth of the flames is deeper with urethane.

JT you do have nice flames
 
T

Toot

Guest
I think I was more expecting the colors to really 'pop' when I put the clear over it. I have heard/read that candies don't work until a clear is applied so I was really expecting to see a difference. It was disappointing to see no change. Oh well, live and learn, if all those elite airbrush guys can do it, why can't I? lol
 

Strictly Attitude

Air-Valve Autobot!
createx has a video on there site on how to do water base/borne real fire. I know the formula for uro's is red candy red, then orange then candy red, then yellow then candy orange, then white then candy yellow, then white highlights and purple for extra depth. At least thats the Mike Lavalle formula.
 
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wickedartstudio

Mac-Valve Maestro!
I think I was more expecting the colors to really 'pop' when I put the clear over it. I have heard/read that candies don't work until a clear is applied so I was really expecting to see a difference. It was disappointing to see no change. Oh well, live and learn, if all those elite airbrush guys can do it, why can't I? lol

As Herb already mentioned... "true" candies do not exist in the waterbased paint world. A true candy is more of a dye, not a pigmented color. Some cool effects can be achieved with the AA candies, but they will not create the same "pop" as urethanes. And with urethane you can see the colors intensify prior to clearing. As others have mentioned above, fantastic results can be achieved with a waterbased system as well. I like to add dry pearl in key areas of my waterbased flames for the extra glow.
 
P

Psycho

Guest
Ooooh! I'll have that( a la dumb and dumber) :eek-new: Haha, but seriously, that sounds good!
 

airbrushtutor

Love Spreading Overseer
I think I was more expecting the colors to really 'pop' when I put the clear over it. I have heard/read that candies don't work until a clear is applied so I was really expecting to see a difference. It was disappointing to see no change. Oh well, live and learn, if all those elite airbrush guys can do it, why can't I? lol

Hi Toot - the harsh truth is that you need more practise with flames. I've never seen waterbased colors cleared but i have seen the uro true fire cleared many times and the clear will make or break your flames, they definitely pop big time!
If you have overused red candy in the bottom layers for example, then the red dye will bleed through and completely color the rest of your flames red!
True fire is the hardest thing i've had to learn - i thought i'd pick it up straight away but it has really taken hours upon hours. You need to learn how to stack your colors correctly (and as mentioned the process is different for uro's and water based), however equally as important is the shapes you create.
I started a thread back last April to show people my weakness with true fire and to sort of document my journey..
The first post is probably my 20th attempt at true fire. I have some terrible looking pieces that i haven't posted in that thread but take my word for it:cower:. I still haven't perfected my flames, but i have got them to a stage where i'd comfortably paint them commercially :highly_amused:

Maybe you'll pick up something off this thread as well as following the advice from others in here:
Free Hand Flames
 
T

Toot

Guest
Phew, think this thread went the opposite way to my intention. This is my 2nd & 3rd pieces of work ever. I wasn't posting to say look at my flames...I was posting to say why did they go all muddy. I thought candies 'popped' once cleared.

Nice people pointed out that water-based candies won't do that, I did take that on board, I was just re-commenting I thought that candies were supposed to 'pop' and I was disappointed but now I know why, so many thanks for the clarification.

And yes, as this is my 2nd & 3rd pieces of 'work' (my first go on metal, my first time at preparing the metal and sealing it and my first go at spraying a clear) I do fully understand that I need to paint, paint and paint..then go paint, paint and paint more.

As I said, I was just happy to stop watching videos and actually go out and paint something. Watching videos certainly gives you ideas but time-in-the-saddle is where you really learn.
 
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wickedartstudio

Mac-Valve Maestro!
I thought candies 'popped' once cleared.

They do provided you are using a "true" candy. The intensity achieved also depends on the underlying art work and how the candy is applied. One important point to remember when you're going to add candies to your art work is: Keep your tonal values light where the candy will go. Adding candy darkens the image. If the image is too dark prior to adding the candy, you will lose some of the "pop", some detail and it just might have that "muddy" appearance. Hope all that is clear as "mud"... (lol, couldn't resist).

Your first two attempts are nothing to be ashamed of though... Fire is not an easy thing to recreate realistically and you have a great attitude! As you said... "time-in-the-saddle is where you really learn"! Keep up the good work!
 
P

Psycho

Guest
I think I am starting to understand what people mean by 'muddy'.
I have had a go at fire - not true fire, more a figurative-based-corporate-aimed-non-realistic-true-fire-styled-rendition of flames. (lol)

This is my first 2 goes....I really thought AA candies would 'pop' under a clear.
I cleared it (first time I ever tried that as well) and it just looks like crap.
Obviously as this is my second time at painting fire I need to do heaps more work but I was really annoyed at the lack of lustre.
I don't think Wicked or AA paints will allow 'popping' fire to be done. (yes, i know people have done it...they are pros...I am but a n00b..and would they do a car using water based?)

So, maybe if I want to paint fire, whether it is 'true' or not I need to get some solvent based paint?
And same with the 1K clear. 3 coats and it really done nothing.

Overall quite disappointed but also happy that I actually stopped watching videos and sprayed some paint, lol....=)
View attachment 8279
I really like the one on the left. The one on the right is a little too busy. Also, obvious and heavy use of stencil. Overall, for you 2nd and 3rd attempts you should not be dissatisfied. I aspire to do Realistic flames as well, and I still don't consider myself any good. I know that I have improved, but... Anyway, my advice to you is to keep at it! You have talent, but airbrushing requires more than just talent, it requires practice as well.
I can not answer your question about the muddyness, as I'm just a paddyjuan(star wars)

keep up the good work! Don't get discouraged!


Led Zeppelin - D'yer Mak'er - YouTube
I hope this is encouraging to you!
 
P

Psycho

Guest
Man i really screwed that reply up! I hope you can figger out that I typed most of my message into your original post. Sorry!
 
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