Need input on how to do this, please :)

[IPT]

Hey guys. Been AB'ing a little while but mostly on RC cars. Anyway, want to do a project for a cabinet that will have some blends of different colors, and a faded image over another. Best I know I can either use transparent paints, or try to use opaques and color match (that would be interesting). Anyway, I attached the image. As I try and break down how to attack it I came up with this.

base coat of a middle to light grey since it's in both the flags.

Make a loose mask, base in the green and reds (opaque). Then use transparent black and white to get highlights, shadows, and bring up the grey value to white for the whites. I'll keep the blue areas masked.

Probably opaque for the green, red and blue. Then once the blue is laid down, mask off blue and build a semi transparent white for the stars. Allow the shadows to show from the blue below (building white about and over the blue) and fade transparent white into the green where it bleeds.

Finally use transparent white and some brown/black for the eagle. Very over-reduced and build slowly. Build a light white base and then use transparents colors for the beak and inner mouth.

Lastly I'll use some Saral carbon paper to lay in the Mexican flag art work and then cut out clear mask so I can paint that in.

So I've never done anything complex like this. I'll do some small sample pieces first. Looks for color shifts or other issues. I might be in over my head but I think I'll learn a ton doing this.

I'm eager to hear from you with more experience regarding how you'd go about it and or any suggestions you might have. I realize a lot of this trial by fire but at the same time I'd hate to re-invent the wheel!

Thanks!

 

[haasje dutchairbrush]

This is going to be a very complicated one to tackle. I don't think anyone will be able to give you a definetive aproach for this. As you indicated it will probably be smart to do some tests to figure out what is and what isn't going to work.

A couple of thoughts based on what you posted (these are just my ideas about it, there are a lot of way's to aproach this, you just need to figure out which suits you best):

Best I know I can either use transparent paints, or try to use opaques and color match

Color matching it when done correctly can't go wrong ofcourse but this is something that takes a lot of practice and a lot of time. When using transparants keep in mind when adding for instance red on the eagle where the eagle is yellow it will become orange and where it's white it wil become pink (you'll not get a transparant red band as a transparant will just "mix" with the color beneath it.

Then use transparent black and white to get highlights, shadows, and bring up the grey value to white for the whites

Using transparant black will work, transparant white will probably not. A transparant white will in general generate a huge blue shift while hardly making anything lighter (will just give it a translucent "wet" look). Transparant white is needed to adjust the tone of transparant colors as you cant use opaques for that, but in my experience it hardly behaves like a "normal" white when applied as straight white to a painting.

Lastly I'll use some Saral carbon paper to lay in the Mexican flag art work and then cut out clear mask so I can paint that in.

I think this would be a bad idea. The saral will generaly leave some smudges even when used very carefully, you'll have this on the finished parts.


If I were to aproach this I'd use the following method (just a first idea, I'd do some tests first also)

-Apply a white background

-Completely paint the images of the mexican flag and eagle (completely ignoring the flags )

-Do the shape/forms, light/darks and detail in the flags with transparant black. Don't worry about things like the starts, the shadows from the folds in the flag continue through them the starts will take shape in the very last phase

I'd make sure that everything is atleast hit a bit with this (even the pure white areas). This should leave you with a black and white painting of the flags ontop of the pictures you did before as it's transparant the pictures should shine through. Apply a bit less black where the picture are to have the shine through a bit more.

-With an opaque white redo the highlights/lighter areas where needed. Be care full in the areas where you did the pictures and maybe use a bit more reduced white there.

-Mask off the none colored areas and use candies to apply color. A candy doesn't mix with the color beneath it so shouldn't change the colors in the eagle other than giving it a hue of the applied candy. Apply less candy when in the areas where you have the pictures

 

[IPT]

If I were to approach this I'd use the following method (just a first idea, I'd do some tests first also)

-Apply a white background

-Completely paint the images of the mexican flag and eagle (completely ignoring the flags )

-Do the shape/forms, light/darks and detail in the flags with transparant black. Don't worry about things like the starts, the shadows from the folds in the flag continue through them the starts will take shape in the very last phase

I'd make sure that everything is atleast hit a bit with this (even the pure white areas). This should leave you with a black and white painting of the flags ontop of the pictures you did before as it's transparant the pictures should shine through. Apply a bit less black where the picture are to have the shine through a bit more.

-With an opaque white redo the highlights/lighter areas where needed. Be care full in the areas where you did the pictures and maybe use a bit more reduced white there.

-Mask off the none colored areas and use candies to apply color. A candy doesn't mix with the color beneath it so shouldn't change the colors in the eagle other than giving it a hue of the applied candy. Apply less candy when in the areas where you have the pictures

Haasje, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and ideas. I see a lot of learning for myself in the upcoming weeks .

mexican flag and eagle in color, yeah?

When you say "don't worry about the starts" are you talking about the edges?

Then use the transparent black to do the american flag.

Then use the candies to get in the reds and blues of the flags. Were you saying I can use the candies to get my shadows or would you have them dialed in with the transparent black first (in American flag)?

 

[haasje dutchairbrush]

mexican flag and eagle in color, yeah?

Only the center image in the mexican flag and the eagle

When you say "don't worry about the starts" are you talking about the edges?

Yes, you get the starts due to the stars being white in a blue part of the flag. Just mask them when doing the blue

Then use the transparent black to do the american flag.

Both the american and mexican flags

Then use the candies to get in the reds and blues of the flags. Were you saying I can use the candies to get my shadows or would you have them dialed in with the transparent black first (in American flag)?

the candy is just for color (in both flags) the shadows (greyscales) you already did with the transparant black


Ps remember thats just my initial thought on how I would tackle it, there are numerous ways. I'm certainly not saying this is the best or only way

 

[tucky]

This is going to be a very complicated one to tackle. I don't think anyone will be able to give you a definetive aproach for this. As you indicated it will probably be smart to do some tests to figure out what is and what isn't going to work.

A couple of thoughts based on what you posted (these are just my ideas about it, there are a lot of way's to aproach this, you just need to figure out which suits you best):

Best I know I can either use transparent paints, or try to use opaques and color match

Color matching it when done correctly can't go wrong ofcourse but this is something that takes a lot of practice and a lot of time. When using transparants keep in mind when adding for instance red on the eagle where the eagle is yellow it will become orange and where it's white it wil become pink (you'll not get a transparant red band as a transparant will just "mix" with the color beneath it.

Then use transparent black and white to get highlights, shadows, and bring up the grey value to white for the whites

Using transparant black will work, transparant white will probably not. A transparant white will in general generate a huge blue shift while hardly making anything lighter (will just give it a translucent "wet" look). Transparant white is needed to adjust the tone of transparant colors as you cant use opaques for that, but in my experience it hardly behaves like a "normal" white when applied as straight white to a painting.

Lastly I'll use some Saral carbon paper to lay in the Mexican flag art work and then cut out clear mask so I can paint that in.

I think this would be a bad idea. The saral will generaly leave some smudges even when used very carefully, you'll have this on the finished parts.


If I were to aproach this I'd use the following method (just a first idea, I'd do some tests first also)

-Apply a white background

-Completely paint the images of the mexican flag and eagle (completely ignoring the flags )

-Do the shape/forms, light/darks and detail in the flags with transparant black. Don't worry about things like the starts, the shadows from the folds in the flag continue through them the starts will take shape in the very last phase

I'd make sure that everything is atleast hit a bit with this (even the pure white areas). This should leave you with a black and white painting of the flags ontop of the pictures you did before as it's transparant the pictures should shine through. Apply a bit less black where the picture are to have the shine through a bit more.

-With an opaque white redo the highlights/lighter areas where needed. Be care full in the areas where you did the pictures and maybe use a bit more reduced white there.

-Mask off the none colored areas and use candies to apply color. A candy doesn't mix with the color beneath it so shouldn't change the colors in the eagle other than giving it a hue of the applied candy. Apply less candy when in the areas where you have the pictures

great advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[IPT]

great advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup, one of the things that make this forum so awesome!

 

[IPT]

quick crude attempt just to get a feel for it. It's only 3x5. I felt I needed a real reduced opaque white to get the eagle whites to ghost well. I based in grey since I already had a panel that way. However, I think your right, white will be the way to go. Then i can do the lower feathers using grey's in the negative space rather then trying to spray white over whats there.

I was all over with my masking. Cut some low tack mask on the board (way to deeply ), then used a loose paper mask and freehand too. Some of the stars feel off ) but since it was just messing around I didn't mind it). I'll need to get a much better masking system together. this a was a cluster you-know-what. Not too bad for a sloppy trial run though. I'm optimistic .

 

[IPT]

Okay, much better. Need to tweak the whites a bit on the lower feathers. Have the white from the head fade out quicker, and make a few of the feathers and shadows more subtle (especially around the eye). Also need to dial in the colors of the emblem on the Mexican flag. Put some time into this one, but still it's only a 4 x 10 or so practice piece. Took a little liberty (maybe a bit too much ) adding wrinkles in the flag. Oh, and I muted the colors too. Looking for it to be more subtle in nature.,

Before clear: