Pinewood derby

[A. Gorilla]

My son and I just completed our first pinewood derby this year, and I'm thinking I have to go all-in for future derbies. We would like to sweep all three categories every year for "best workmanship". Den race, open race, and outlaw class. Plus 2 for my daughter in the open and outlaw. That's at least 5 cars per year for the next 4 years.

So anyway, we like the gloss of sanded/compounded enamel clear coat.

Question is! Once we put down our primer, color, and clear coat can we rough-up the clear coat, apply a non-toxic acrylic and then top with another enamel clear coat to sand and compound?

Or do we have to stick with enamel for every step?

I'd prefer the kids to not have to deal with enamel fumes if I can help it for the air-brushing step.

Is that a plan, or is there an alternative process?

 

[Squishy]

Hopefully someone will know the answer to that, not me unfortunately. However as a rule it is best to stick with the same types of clears etc as they can react. No idea if what you want is compatable, so I would suggest some testing on a panel first. But hopefully someone can get you sorted

 

[A. Gorilla]

I guess the other way to put it more simply, how would any of YOU (with kid safety in mind) make a gloss finish derby car?

 

[Mr.Micron]

As far as clear coating you can let your kids do the base and art work with Wicked Water based paint. Then let you come in on the clear coat to give it that mirror gloss finish that make everyone else go WOW!...
I used 1k clear coat on my son's first car which he still has sitting on his dresser, and 2k clear on the second one which he also still has.
But all the base coat and art work was done by him , Then I took it to my paint booth and cleared it.
After that I taught him how to cut and polish it. Letting them put most of the time into it using the water base paints makes them feel like it is all theirs.
It also really makes them happy when one of the sticker kids gets jealous of a cool paint job vs just placing sticker on it and calling it done.

But make sure it is at weight before final clear . Polish the nails that hold the wheels on and use graphite to lube them , As well as polish the entire tread surface of the wheel and the spindle hole as well.

Oh I did primer it with enamel before he put his base coat on . mainly that is to help fill and seal the wood to hold the paint better.

 

[A. Gorilla]

Thank you!

It's funny, even though "every kid get's a trophy", they are still hyper aware of who wins and loses. Adult intentions don't seem to matter. They know what 1st and last place looks like.

My 1st grader goes: "Why'd you make me lose??"

"I...I...we weren't in last place for EVERY heat!"

I definitely neglected a couple things you mentioned.

I plan to follow this basic performance plan for next year:

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Likewise, everybody knows what a head-turning paint-job really is. Our relative hack-job (insufficiently primered with some wood grain showing) still impressed people since it was cut and compounded.

But with some clear-coat over air-brushing? I think riots might erupt.

 

[Squishy]

Funny isn't it that no matter what the adults do to make kids feel like they've come away with something positive for their efforts, they will have their own system of hierarchy and pecking order anyway .

I'm a big fan of 2k clear, I think its the toughest finish, but maybe overkill and a 1k good enough for this (Thanks for the vid - no idea what a pinewood derby was. Not a thing here). Def not kid friendly so would do as Herb says, and do that part yourself.

Looks like fun, wouldn't mind painting up a few myself.

 

[markjthomson]

Hi there, what @Squishy says about mixing clears... there are 3 basic curing methods for paints, a chemical reaction (2 pack or 2k - highly toxic, need specialised gear and protection... don't play with it), solvent dried paints including most water based (these dry fast by an evaporating solvent) and enamels which have an initial dry from solvents and the remainder of the hardening is an oxidation. Safest rule with paints is don't mix different cures... there are some exceptions but that will be safe. Then there are a few details about combining different paints within each method. For example, don't put a solvent based paint over a water based paint... but you can probably do it the other way around. A test panel is always a good way to go. So much easier to sort out.

Generally enamels don't need a clear. So I'm assuming you will clear over any design you do. It certainly won't hurt to clear the whole thing though and 2k over a fully cured enamel (about 7 days at 20 degrees c) is one of those exceptions to the rule. Or you can get an enamel clear.

Yes, as you have noticed, shiny overcomes "pretty". I was looking at some work a non painter friend of mine did on a boat. He sprayed it on really thick and the gloss was amazing. He had to point out the large blobby run he had, shiny works and hides a multitude of shortfalls!

And yes, "every one's a winner" is BS that is only believed by the head up the butt PC people who espouse it - kids see straight through it...

Now that you have all our deep deep secrets, (ok, at least a couple...) you aren't allowed out... you have to post pictures of progress... Have you done any airbrushing before?

Cheers Mark

 

[A. Gorilla]

Funny isn't it that no matter what the adults do to make kids feel like they've come away with something positive for their efforts, they will have their own system of hierarchy and pecking order anyway .

I'm a big fan of 2k clear, I think its the toughest finish, but maybe overkill and a 1k good enough for this (Thanks for the vid - no idea what a pinewood derby was. Not a thing here). Def not kid friendly so would do as Herb says, and do that part yourself.

Looks like fun, wouldn't mind painting up a few myself.

1k clear coat. I assume this is a step of quality above, say, Rustoleum? That stuff seems ok...but I also don't have anything to compare it to.

 

[A. Gorilla]

Hi there, what @Squishy says about mixing clears... there are 3 basic curing methods for paints, a chemical reaction (2 pack or 2k - highly toxic, need specialised gear and protection... don't play with it), solvent dried paints including most water based (these dry fast by an evaporating solvent) and enamels which have an initial dry from solvents and the remainder of the hardening is an oxidation. Safest rule with paints is don't mix different cures... there are some exceptions but that will be safe. Then there are a few details about combining different paints within each method. For example, don't put a solvent based paint over a water based paint... but you can probably do it the other way around. A test panel is always a good way to go. So much easier to sort out.

Generally enamels don't need a clear. So I'm assuming you will clear over any design you do. It certainly won't hurt to clear the whole thing though and 2k over a fully cured enamel (about 7 days at 20 degrees c) is one of those exceptions to the rule. Or you can get an enamel clear.

Yes, as you have noticed, shiny overcomes "pretty". I was looking at some work a non painter friend of mine did on a boat. He sprayed it on really thick and the gloss was amazing. He had to point out the large blobby run he had, shiny works and hides a multitude of shortfalls!

And yes, "every one's a winner" is BS that is only believed by the head up the butt PC people who espouse it - kids see straight through it...

Now that you have all our deep deep secrets, (ok, at least a couple...) you aren't allowed out... you have to post pictures of progress... Have you done any airbrushing before?

Cheers Mark

No, none. Just hardware store rattle can. Following a general template of auto body work with cheap multi-purpose products.

The idea in my mind was to have a scuffed enamel clear coat to paint on with kid-safe airbrush paint, then more enamel clear to cut and buff.

Specialized products and equipment is a new step.

 

[markjthomson]

1k clear coat. I assume this is a step of quality above, say, Rustoleum? That stuff seems ok...but I also don't have anything to compare it to.

1k is a generic term. One of the top automotive 2 pack paints back in the '80's was called 2k and it has become a generic name for 2 part paints. So 1k is a solvent based paint that only has the one part component. In the early days they were Nitro Cellulose Acrylics (NCA) and a dulux product called Dulon. 10 or 15 base coats then a truck load of clear and a cut and buff to bring up the glass shine.

 

[Mr.Micron]

Well with rattle cans even if you put 5 coats on that is only equal to one coat from a spray gun.
so it is easy to sand through the rattle can clear.
Where do you hail from.

 

[A. Gorilla]

As far as clear coating you can let your kids do the base and art work with Wicked Water based paint. Then let you come in on the clear coat to give it that mirror gloss finish that make everyone else go WOW!...
I used 1k clear coat on my son's first car which he still has sitting on his dresser, and 2k clear on the second one which he also still has.
But all the base coat and art work was done by him , Then I took it to my paint booth and cleared it.
After that I taught him how to cut and polish it. Letting them put most of the time into it using the water base paints makes them feel like it is all theirs.
It also really makes them happy when one of the sticker kids gets jealous of a cool paint job vs just placing sticker on it and calling it done.

But make sure it is at weight before final clear . Polish the nails that hold the wheels on and use graphite to lube them , As well as polish the entire tread surface of the wheel and the spindle hole as well.

Oh I did primer it with enamel before he put his base coat on . mainly that is to help fill and seal the wood to hold the paint better.

Your plan makes sense to me, and I believe the mechanics have finally fell into place in my head.

-Give the car it's base color and seal that in with enamel clear
-Wet sand with 1500 (?)
-Airbrush
-Coat with 1k
-Cut
-Buff

If that's the jist of it, that does not sound like a foreign concept, and I'm a happy camper.

Now I gotta work on getting an actual airbrush.

Seems I can use a regular compressor for that with an add-on water trap, filter, regulator, and some fittings. So that's a relief.

I'm from suburban Chicago.

 

[markjthomson]

Looks about right. If you are using enamel it shouldn't need cutting. I don't recall enamel being cut before but I could be wrong on that one. I do know the guys who tried with older enamel coats ended up with it going powdery soon after. Of course in the short term it was OK. That is something to ask about.

 

[A. Gorilla]

Now that you have all our deep deep secrets, (ok, at least a couple...) you aren't allowed out... you have to post pictures of progress... Have you done any airbrushing before?

Cheers Mark

I plan to. We'll be doing like 10 over the summer in preparation for January 2018. Can't start too soon!

 

[A. Gorilla]

Looks about right. If you are using enamel it shouldn't need cutting. I don't recall enamel being cut before but I could be wrong on that one. I do know the guys who tried with older enamel coats ended up with it going powdery soon after. Of course in the short term it was OK. That is something to ask about.

I'm basing this on auto guys doing their standard flame jobs on door panels. It appears "they" do intercoat clear, scuff with 1500 (more or less), do their flame, then re-clear it all. But of course, that's not air-brushing either, exactly (well..with ghost flames maybe). That appears to be heavier, which often needs to be be sanded out to smooth the tape lines.

I assume we DON'T do that last part with air-brushing? Much more delicate, it appears.

 

[markjthomson]

OK there are a heap of good youtube video's on doing flames, there are the "classic" ones then the "real fire" style. Some are airbrushed, some are pin stripped. Check them out. They are fun to do. Airbrushtutor has a good tutorial on doing flames that is easy to follow.

 

[A. Gorilla]

OK there are a heap of good youtube video's on doing flames, there are the "classic" ones then the "real fire" style. Some are airbrushed, some are pin stripped. Check them out. They are fun to do. Airbrushtutor has a good tutorial on doing flames that is easy to follow.

Definitely. I've been bookmarking some of the "photo-realistic flame" vids. Doesn't look overly intimidating.

 

[markjthomson]

Lol... it is the most elusive of effects if the experts know anything... great fun to practice

 

[Mr.Micron]

Your plan makes sense to me, and I believe the mechanics have finally fell into place in my head.

-Give the car it's base color and seal that in with enamel clear
-Wet sand with 1500 (?)
-Airbrush
-Coat with 1k
-Cut
-Buff

If that's the jist of it, that does not sound like a foreign concept, and I'm a happy camper.

Now I gotta work on getting an actual airbrush.

Seems I can use a regular compressor for that with an add-on water trap, filter, regulator, and some fittings. So that's a relief.

I'm from suburban Chicago.

Just make sure to mask up and I do hope your garage is detached .
I use high build primer White straight on the wood.
Then my base was wicked silver, Followed By a autoair candy(old pigment candy ) Now I would use the new Candy02
Then art work then clear coat.
I am about 3 hours south of you in Bloomington, In

 

[A. Gorilla]

Just make sure to mask up and I do hope your garage is detached .
I use high build primer White straight on the wood.
Then my base was wicked silver, Followed By a autoair candy(old pigment candy ) Now I would use the new Candy02
Then art work then clear coat.
I am about 3 hours south of you in Bloomington, In

Ooo! I like that. Artwork on top of candy.

We're going to stomp the guts out of these other 8 year olds!!