Water Problem

[Madbrush]

A couple of weeks ago I bought a new compressor with a 6 litre tank, the comp is capable of 12 bar and has only a pressure regulator (therefore no water trap), I built the comp into a box lined with sound proofing foam to lessen the decibels, the box has air holes drilled at the comp's air intake, so no problem there.

I have a 5 metre hose running from the comp to to a bench next to my easel, this is connected to an extra regulator and water trap (combined) which is clamped to the bench with a trap holder and pistol rest also combined, from here I have a 3 metre braided airbrush hose connected to a pistol grip water trap.

Yesterday, working with this set-up for the first time, everything was great for the first 15 minutes, then suddenly I got water spurting out of the brush which totally ruined my $100,000 painting.

I saw at no time water in either of the 2 traps, but when I disconnected everything, I had water coming out of the thicker hose (between comp and trap/reg).

My dilemma is "why is this happening" and even more important "why me", my own theory, and please don't let me give the impression that I know what I'm talking about, is that the thicker hose is too far from the trap causing a greater degree of condensation in the hose, another theory is that I've done something wrong.

All advice would be appreciated, but in light of the fact that this was all too much for me, I would rather that Ace Kustoms or Mitch just come here and fix it, and when they are finished give me a hug (specially Ace, seen his vids, they don't him Ace for nothing)

@Mitch, your right of course, I read your mind, it was 30psi

:sorrow:

 

[worldofglasscraft]

Mad (as a) brush,

We need a few more details mate.
Was this the first time you had used it? Had you done a tank drain check
on set up?
Are your tubes running down from the comp to water trap? to airbrush?
Did you do a dry air run with all this new kit before starting your $1000,00o painting?
What pipe (hose) is it, condensation forms in some pipes especially metal one's and you should try to have some form of water drain set up before your water trap.
I will dig out a piping plan for compressors to give you an instant understanding of what I is saying here.

 

[Madbrush]

Mad (as a) brush,

We need a few more details mate.
Was this the first time you had used it? Had you done a tank drain check
on set up?
Are your tubes running down from the comp to water trap? to airbrush?
Did you do a dry air run with all this new kit before starting your $1000,00o painting?
What pipe (hose) is it, condensation forms in some pipes especially metal one's and you should try to have some form of water drain set up before your water trap.
I will dig out a piping plan for compressors to give you an instant understanding of what I is saying here.

More details? I've written a book man, LOL

Yes first time used.
No I didn't do a drain check, I switched the comp on and air came out so I thought "it works".
The main hose goes from the comp to an 8bar water trap through a 5 metre plastic hose with steel braiding embedded.
I don't know what you mean by a "dry air run" but methinks I've lost $100,000 because of my own stupidity, now I really need that hug and don't care any more who does it.
There is a water drain under the tank, which I took off once just to see what it does, but then I saw Mitch's vid and new what it was, I first thought it was for an extra hose, isn't that just stupid

The hose runs along the floor and then suddenly travels 90cm upwards to the water trap, after which comes the AB hose.

Hope this helps

 

[worldofglasscraft]

Found some pics from a semi pro set up.
Remember, a compressor heats up the air in the tank causing condensation.
You have your comp nicely snug and warm in an insulated box so you need to consider some form of condenser to cool any hot air and drain any condensation.
Like this:

(I seem to have nearly exceed my photo quota on the forum! and cant seem to place the pictures so heres the links)

 

[Madbrush]

Now I understand, the problem would seen to be the insulated box causing the comp to heat up more, the set up in the photos looks way too complicated for my puny little brain, so I think it might be an idea to take the tank out of the new the new comp and attach it to the old old silent comp, this relatively simple even for me, but it also means that the comp can sit closer to me, and my father in law used to make these condenser set ups on boats, so he can make a miniature for me to at to the improvised set up.

I had the photo uploading problem too, but now I resize all my photos to under 90kb which means it takes longer to exceed your quota, I didn't realize this at first and had to edit every post I ever did, this took me about four hours total.

Thanks for the help mate your a star, if you were a dog you would be lassie, but your not a dog, so your just a star.

I'm so happy now I could manage without the hug, but where the hell are Ace and Mitch when you need them? oh I know, you sent them to the pub.

 

[worldofglasscraft]

My pleasure to help, when your F.I.L makes a miniature condenser, can you post a photo so I can try to make one please?
Bear in mind, that drain plug is the real important part.
No show us yer 2ns attempt $1000,000 painting

 

[Madbrush]

My pleasure to help, when your F.I.L makes a miniature condenser, can you post a photo so I can try to make one please?
Bear in mind, that drain plug is the real important part.
No show us yer 2ns attempt $1000,000 painting

Thanks mate, but I think to be on the safe side I'll start with a $10 painting and leave the "in at the deep end" stuff for another time.

P.S. it was hundred thousand dollars and not a million, I'm not that good yet, just give me 2 weeks and who knows, I once painted a moustache on a false face (mask) so I think that puts me in good stead even if it was a little crooked.

And a question about the condenser, can I assume that it is a similar technology as Ranhalen uses to make hooch, Oh sorry Ranhalen, we're not supposed to know that are we? OK folks scratch out "Hooch" and replace that with "home made reducer" which was what I meant to say.

P.S. @Tony, look what I found, a £ sign on my European layout keybaord, till now I thought I only had $ and €, but now I also have £, that'll save me hours writing pound all the time. cool eh?

 

[worldofglasscraft]

I have yet to find out what reducer is and when to use it, Moonshine I already know about........... hic

 

[Madbrush]

I have yet to find out what reducer is and when to use it, Moonshine I already know about........... hic

I believe that a reducer is some thing which when mixed with your paint reduces it to half of what it is in the first place which means you end up with an a half ounce instead of an ounce, I don't what that is in our money.

Just kidding, It's for thinning purposes and usually contains substances to inhibit tip dry, like hooch for example, no tip dry with that stuff, I bought a bottle of it this week but I didn't like the taste of it.

 

[RebelAir]

A quick thought, the box can add to the condensation issue, it basically comes down to the temperature difference between outside temp and inside air temp as Worldofglasscraft suggested..An air dryer or condenser is the ultimate set up but there is a cple of other things that can reduce the effect that cost a lot less to incorporate..

-Use a long coiled hose- Their cheap and the centrifugal forces created helps push the water againt's the hose itself rather than a straight hose which just allows a free flow of the condensed water..
-Use a gun mounted water trap- The best place to stop water is at the gun itself..Theres lots of cheap water traps that attach directly to the gun that captures the water before it enters the gun itself..
-Use a Snorkel for your compressor-Rather than just allowing air draw through a hot insulated box that surrounds your compressor, consider attaching a hose to your compressor inlet and then re-attaching your filter to the hose end, mounted Outside of the box you've made, this will insure the air entering the compressor isn't heated by the internal heat generated by ya compressor being in a box..It will still heat up due to compression but not as much as its being pre-warmed..
-Run your hose through a bucket of warm water..A pain in the bum but it could assist..Equalizing the air temperature inside the hose compared to whats outside is basically what a good condenser does
-Put a U-bend in your hose set-up..back in the day when I was a Fitter, we used to set up air feed lines with a u-bend in it, this helps trap any excess water in the bend but may not stop it completely...
Hope that helps a bit...Good luck.

Can I have some of that "Hooch", it may stop some tip dry issues I have Wink Wink LOL

 

[Madbrush]

@Ace Kustoms, Thank you for tips and advice, in my original query I did mention that I have a trap on the pistol itself, and also a trap before the airbrush hose, the reason I put the comp in a box was because of the noise (90 decibel) but the Insulation in the box, just like you and Tony said, is causing more condensation.

With your advice here and that of Tony, I now have a better understanding of what I should be trying to achieve, so my plan now is to take the tank off the new compressor and attach this to the old silent compressor (which incidentally is also new), the only problem with this compressor is that it gets extremely warm, but to combat this I can install a cooling fan, then I can make a coil out of the main hose running downwards from the comp to the tank, I can also install a small sump and drain tap here.

Basically everything I need is at hand between both compressors, because the workspace is small, I need to make a compact unit, I will post a photo of the finished article, but fortunately, thanks to you and Tony,I now know what I need to do, so thanks guys.

P.S. my time on the box is not wasted, I have another job for him.

 

[airbrushtutor]

I've been here the whole time.. i just haven't been able to help?! you have two moisture traps, one at the compressor and one at the gun.. i thought one silly possibility could be if the moisture trap was on the wrong way but it should still be getting filtered by your filter at your gun? Was there water filled in the traps? I'm stumped.. this shouldn't be happening, i've never had trouble like this with a moisture trap, so i thought i'd let the professionals help you out.
The only other thing i'd have suggested is for you to drain your compressor but you already did that.
i'll just walk away quietly..

 

[Madbrush]

I've been here the whole time.. i just haven't been able to help?! you have two moisture traps, one at the compressor and one at the gun.. i thought one silly possibility could be if the moisture trap was on the wrong way but it should still be getting filtered by your filter at your gun? Was there water filled in the traps? I'm stumped.. this shouldn't be happening, i've never had trouble like this with a moisture trap, so i thought i'd let the professionals help you out.
The only other thing i'd have suggested is for you to drain your compressor but you already did that.
i'll just walk away quietly..

Hey Mitch

No problem mate, we have found the problem, the comp was producing more water than usual because it was living in an insulated little house keeping it warm, but thanks to ace and Tony, I'm going to rearrange everything by removing the tank and putting that onto the old compressor and setting up a cooling condenser and cooling fan over the warmest pert of the old compressor, I've removed the tank and it's ready to be put into place.

Tomorrow I'll pick up some parts and within a couple of hours it will be ready.

I know your busy so I forgive you,

 

[Madbrush]

@Mitch, I forgot but I bought a Scotsman proof water trap, it states on it in 7" letters "air in" and "air out" so no problem there.

 

[worldofglasscraft]

I am going to explore Ace's snorkel idea.

 

[Madbrush]

I am going to explore Ace's snorkel idea.

Because I now have clue as what I'm supposed to be doing, I think the snorkel idea (which I intend to employ) is simply insuring that air travel upwards ans away from the condenser coil, so that any water will not travel upwards, because of the where my tank will now be situated, I need to do it with the U bend he mentioned and then another U bend on top.

But I've really got the picture now and am actually looking forward to creating this thing on my own, it's amazing what you can learn in one day, specially with a little help from your friends:encouragement:

 

[RebelAir]

Soz madbrush, missed the bit about ya having the gun trap on...Cld it be buggered? Ultimately unless its full or buggered it shldn't let water into the gun...Was thinking about this a bit today and thought of another small cheap idea that may help..The snorkal idea is just to ensure the airs reasonably cool before going in and that its not sucking to much hot air, its more to ensure ya don't blow up ya compressor on a really hot day and has access to a clean source, compression heats the air a lot anyway so ultimately I don't think its the fact its in a box that may be the huge issue, I used an insulated box for years and never caused an issue..A snorkal will help a little but ultimately most of the issue is happening after the first water trap..Water traps on the actual compressor help but realistically they don't do a lot, all they really stop is that little bit coming through if ya haven't drained ya tank for awhile, your compressor needs to be pretty full of water for it generally to do anything...

It purely comes down to the heat difference between the outside temp and the internal temp of the air passing through the hose..The longer the hose the more the issue and the more condensation is allowed to form...Here's my thought..Add a old wire plastic spool inside your box and coil (loop) the straight hose around it a few times, as if you we're hanging a garden hose..This will create loops in your hose to capture excess water plus it may also, due to the internal box temp, equalize the heat aspect within the air hose a bit, ie it would basically be like making your own drier in a sense and water trap in a very easy fashion..It wont stop it all but it may reduce it a lot..After that coiling try to keep your hose pretty short after it comes out of the box so the inside heated air isn't cooled down too much by the outside temperature and making its travel distance shorter may assist in that aspect aswell...I really like to preach coiled hoses, their really cheap and even though the same prob does ultimately happen it tends to reduce the amount that gets through the hose..Mines almost clear and ya can literally see the water being forced againts the hose edge and if its quite long it takes the water ages to work its way through..After my coiled hose I run a copletely clear hose I made meself..With most hoses ya can't see the problem happening until its to late, by making a clear hose you can actually see if waters coming through and empty it just in time to save ya painting...

Good luck m8, hope ya get it sorted...

 

[Madbrush]

Thanks Ace, my plan is to incorporate all these ideas in to a compact unit, I will be using my old compressor, which was supplied without a tank making the pressure irregular, the same comp is available with a tank but it's only 3 litres, I have now a 6 litre tank which obviously means more work for the comp, so I'm going to attach a cooling fan which will kick in when the comp does.

I want to make the coil system form the comp to the tank in the hope that I get lees water in the tank, I also want to install a small see through tank at the end of the coil with a drain tap, I can use a model air-plane petrol tank for this, it simply means there is somewhere for the water to sit.

The pistol grip trap is new and I have 2 of them and tried both, but the compressor trap was simply too far from the comp and I thought it was empty when it was in fact full, because it was full, I thought I was looking at plastic.

I have everything I need except one small 1/4 fitting which I plan to pick up today, then I can get started, my only small problem is to decide how to bring it all together and keep it mobile, but I'll cross that bridge later.

 

[Madbrush]

My plan was a complete disaster, I didn't find the parts I needed and the old compressor I wanted to use is too weak for the tank I intended to use.

I have now ordered a new quiet compressor with tank, this is actually my forth compressor, which means I'm going through compressors at the rate of 1 per (rubbish) painting, this means when I do job and I calculate the cost of materials I shall have to include the cost of a new compressor, but I rather think that this may cause prospective clients to go else where.

It seems the only good thing to come out of all of this is I can now write the word "compressor" without being prodded by the automatic spell check, that's a big plus.

Tony and Ace, sorry guys, I tried my best and failed miserably, I hope we can still stay friends.
Mitch, please don't think any less of me, I promise to try harder in the future, and does this mean I might lose points in THE compis, compitis, campisit, THE GAME.

 

[worldofglasscraft]

I put water in my gun on purpose ~
I realise that your probably have to have a silent compressor but what make and models are you using food?
I have an IWATA Power studio with a 2litre tank and a huge 25kitre tank on a clarke. and both will do the business. (of squirting coloured water hahahahaha)
What compressors have you had mate?