Over-thinned metallics and other newbie questions

[Gearcrusher]

Hello, this is my first post, and I'm hoping to get some sage advice. I have an Iwata NEO N2000 BCN (siphon-fed), with a 0.5mm nozzle. I've owned the brush for a little while and maybe used it 10 times or so, but am still a newbie. I have heard the common advice about thinning to milk consistency, and have been trying to do that always. However, even with that, the brush seems prone to clogging. I can get it to run well for a few minutes, set the brush down for 30 seconds, and when I resume usage it starts to sputter and produce intermittent flow. Increasing the pressure can sometimes help, but it shouldn't take over 40 PSI to make this brush run with dedicated airbrush paints (Createx) that have been properly diluted. I SOMETIMES will see a little less clogging by over-diluting (I'm referring to more than 50% thinner, which should not be required for a paint that's designed to be "ready to spray" right from the bottle.) Because of this, my coats are so thin and transparent that it takes 20 or more coats to achieve opacity. So that isn't right. My needs are almost exclusively to lay down a solid color on a medium/wide area, and not detail work.

I've heard stories of people getting a "bad" NEO airbrush, but it's more likely my technique or something else. I have a 2nd-stage regulator downstream of my compressor which does a great job of precise pressure control. So here are some specific questions:

1. Given the above information, with normal solid airbrush paints, IF properly diluted, what could be causing the constant clogging?

2. I always hear the advice about applying "several light coats". Should a light coat be defined as one where I can see zero reflection of "wetness" when examining the item in the right light (i.e., just a very light "dusting" of paint)? If I do that, it takes a bezillion coats to get coverage and color. Assuming it's OK to have a very minor level of wetness (but not so much to produce runs), how long should I wait between coats (with normal acrylics), and should I do anything with the brush during this waiting period (e.g., detach the bottle and stir the paint, run cleaner through the brush, wipe off the needle, etc)?

3. When using the Createx Pearlized (aka metallic) paints, the clogging seems much worse, which makes sense, but that paint still should work with a 0.5mm nozzle. I need to dilute those paints a ridiculous amount to get the brush to work at all. Do any of you achieve good results with a NEO and that brand of paint? (By "good results", I mean you're able to lay down a nice solid, shiny metallic-looking base layer with between 2 and 4 coats).

4. Due to the frustration and all the things I've tried, I'm considering a different brush. Since I'm not doing detail work, I don't think I need the 0.5mm nozzle. Usually I need to paint one solid color on something the size of an index card, or larger. I'm looking at the Paasche VL-3AS set, which comes with 0.55, 0.75, and 1.05mm nozzles. I've read that it could be a decent choice when larger spray areas are required. Any thoughts?

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I know there is a ton of collective experience between all of you, and I'd really like to continue airbrushing due to the beautiful results achievable when you get it right.

Thanks!

 

[JB Test]

Hi Gearcrusher, welcome to the forum,

I'm sure someone a lot more experienced than I will be along to answer your questions soon.
One question you will be asked is what product are you using to reduce (thin) your paint with. So if you post that now it will allow someone to give you a better answer faster.

To me, the sputter issue sounds like tip dry. Paint will dry on the tip of the needle as quickly as it drys on anything it is sprayed on and it builds up on the tip the same as it does on whatever your painting on.

Are you sure you are using the 'Air on- Paint on- Paint off- Air off' ( trigger down- back- forward- up) trigger technique all the time? This gives the tip a chance to get cleaned off and will minimize but not eliminate tip dry. It is a common error with newbies, it's a learned muscle memory thing and doesn't come naturally at first.

There are ways to clean the tip during the painting session, but the above technique is a must do.

I keep a cotton ball with reducer on it in the palm of my non brush holding hand. A small sponge works too. You carefully, gently dab the tip straight into the cotton ball / sponge and it cleans the tip off. Don't swipe it, or twist. Others may have a better suggestion for you.

Anyway, that's a start, others will be here to answer better.
Welcome aboard, enjoy the ride.
-Joe

 

[Gearcrusher]

Hi Gearcrusher, welcome to the forum,

I'm sure someone a lot more experienced than I will be along to answer your questions soon.
One question you will be asked is what product are you using to reduce (thin) your paint with. So if you post that now it will allow someone to give you a better answer faster.

To me, the sputter issue sounds like tip dry. Paint will dry on the tip of the needle as quickly as it drys on anything it is sprayed on and it builds up on the tip the same as it does on whatever your painting on.

Are you sure you are using the 'Air on- Paint on- Paint off- Air off' ( trigger down- back- forward- up) trigger technique all the time? This gives the tip a chance to get cleaned off and will minimize but not eliminate tip dry. It is a common error with newbies, it's a learned muscle memory thing and doesn't come naturally at first.

There are ways to clean the tip during the painting session, but the above technique is a must do.

I keep a cotton ball with reducer on it in the palm of my non brush holding hand. A small sponge works too. You carefully, gently dab the tip straight into the cotton ball / sponge and it cleans the tip off. Don't swipe it, or twist. Others may have a better suggestion for you.

Anyway, that's a start, others will be here to answer better.
Welcome aboard, enjoy the ride.
-Joe

JB Test, thanks for the reply. To answer your questions: yes I have mastered the technique of making sure the paint is shut off before the air on each pass; my thinner is DIY, with 50% distilled water, 25% isopropyl alcohol (91%), 25% Fantastik all-purpose cleaner, with 3-4 drops glycerin. I've tried plain distilled water as well. I make sure to mix in the thinner vigorously.

Thanks for the thinner/cotton ball tip, that's something to try.

 

[huskystafford]

Pearls and metallics are pita to spray. They clog airbrush all the time. The same goes for whites.

Quote: I can get it to run well for a few minutes, set the brush down for 30 seconds, and when I resume usage it starts to sputter and produce intermittent flow.

You are lucky. I can't get few minutes. I spray for 5 seconds, if I am lucky 10 seconds, then I stop, take my little brush which I dab in to small cup with windex, clean the needle, then I wipe needle with small spounge and then I spray 5 seconds and repeat the process...

When I stop with airbrushing for a cigarette I take a cup where I have windex, I spray windex out of my airbrush, I let that cup inside and when I come back I remove the cup and shoot the left overs out of my airbrush. Then I take cup with a paint and I backflush and I spray paint and I am keep repeating process with cleaning needle.

Cause I am suspecting you have a gravity feed, you don't have a luxury to change cups(''insert whistling smiley here'') I would suggest put smaller amount of paint in the cup, after you go on a break, spray cleaner true it, let some cleaner sit inside your airbrush until you come back and spray that leftover cleaner out and start working with paint.

I would go with JB Test on this one. Tip dry.

Also sometimes when paint won't flow nicely I just shoot full blast on 60 psi just to free that clog out of my airbrush. I have 2 hoses and 2 regulators so one hose is always waiting on 60 psi for this.

edit: if you wanna go smaller needle you will have more clogging with metallics and pearls.

 

[huskystafford]

Forgot to add.

We like if our new members introduce their self.

https://airbrushforum.org/introductions/

 

[JB Test]

Hi Gearcrusher,

Congratulations on the correct trigger use. Bravo

I always recommend sticking with the paint manufactures specified reducers for starting out airbrush users. After you have more experience, you can experiment.
You didn't mention which flavor Createx you are using besides Pearls and they differ.
This TDS will give you a better idea than anything I can write.

https://creatextech.com/assets/html/pages/Createx-Airbrush-Colors-TDS.html

For reduction I use Createx 4011 along with Createx UVLS if I want a harder finish

https://creatextech.com/assets/html/pages/4011-TDS.html

https://creatextech.com/assets/html/pages/UVLS-Clears-TDS.html

-Joe

 

[Gearcrusher]

Thanks guys for the replies. Joe: I'm using the "Opaque" series of Createx paints (e.g., 5210 aka Opaque Red, 5211 or Opaque Black). I did start out using the (overpriced) 4011 reducer, and didn't notice any difference when I switched to my custom mix.

After posting my original note, I drove down to the big local art store here and talked with someone who had a lot of airbrush experience. He said that my particular airbrush has been problematic for a lot of people, and that when customers return an airbrush to his store, "It's usually a NEO." I've also read recently that the NEO has one of the smallest gaps between the nozzle cap and nozzle, so maybe that contributes to the dried-paint-on-tip syndrome? Hard to say. He suggested that if I wanted to switch and don't need to change line width on the fly, the single-action Paasche model H might be something to try. So I'm strongly considering that, for the wide swath solid color painting I do.

 

[JB Test]

I have zero experience with the NEO, so I really cant help you with that.
If you are doing wide swaths primarily, a single action could be your answer. I have two Paasche airbrushes, one I use a lot, and one I only used once so far. I like them, not my primary brush but could be. They are not single action, but I'm not doing what you are.

I expected some others to chime in by now, but it is the Monday before a holiday weekend and a lot of people are busy. I'm sure someone with more experience will answer, just don't know when.

I think you are going down the correct path, asking the right questions, thinking about the answers your getting,and forming a plan. That's what it's all about.

-Joe

 

[tatocorvette]

Hello,

I don't have any experience with the NEO nor with the paint you are using. But from your description I would agree tip dry may be part of your problem. But it also seems you are using a possible too small airbrush setup with a too thick paint. If you are painting a large area in a single color, with no need for fine detail, you may consider either a "Large" or "Heavy" setup in an internal mix airbrush, or even an external mix airbrush like the Paasche H or the Badger 350.
The atomization of an external mix airbrush is very different. It is broad and coarse, but maybe that is what you need. They can also be air hungry and will move a lot of material really fast. That's why those are usually called the firehoses.
Since you already have the NEO, you can use it for smaller jobs or more regular paints and get a "firehose" for those bigger jobs.
Here is a quick test of an external mix clone I fixed. There are a gazillion clones out there of this design.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Thanks,
Ismael

 

[2Diverse]

the single-action Paasche model H might be something to try. So I'm strongly considering that, for the wide swath solid color painting I do.

Where are you?

I may be able to hook you up as I have a number of Paasche H brushes I could sell. All are used. I probably have some new needle/nozzles in various sizes (1, 3 ad 5). I have vintage and fairly current H brushes. Depends on what you are looking for/need.

Need a Paasche hose? Got them too.

Shoot me a PM if you are interested.

 

[RK Ink and Focus]

Hi, is your BCN new or did you get it second hand? I ask as I wonder if it is in standard setup and if it is still under iwata warranty should there be a problem.

I am sorry to hear you are having issues with your BCN. I have one and have found it to be extremely nice to use. The Neos are designed to atomise well at low pressure but are listed to work anywhere between 10 and 60psi I think. I run mine at approx 20psi and I will produce nice results with the inks and thinned acrylics that I use.

The gap between nozzle and nozzle cap is indeed small and I assume this contributes to it's abilities to atomise at low pressure and probably also limits the effectiveness of trying to use too much pressure to over come your problem.

The BCN has a dual taper needle and being 0.5mm set up should handle thicker paints. There is a notable difference in delivery the further back you pull the trigger. When you say wide, how wide is your spray pattern and how close are you to your work piece?

I use a soft brush and a sharpened soft pencil eraser for cleaning around the nozzle and tip. It sounds like you may be getting tip dry and and clogging giving it a swab will help if you get into the routine of doing it before the problem occurs but If you are getting clogging because of the paint type I would suggest experimenting with the Neo with a wider open trigger and low pressure to start with on something scrap.

I am unfamiliar with the paint you use, is it acrylic?

Before you dump the Neo is there anywhere local online you can find who are iwata dealers and could check it out for any defects for you and test it with the paint you are using?

 

[Gearcrusher]

Thanks yet again for all the tips!

@tatocorvette: you said the external brush atomization is "broad and coarse". I also heard that mentioned elsewhere. I definitely need "broad", but are those brushes still capable of producing a nice smooth finish? I'm really only looking for a result comparable to a good rattle can job. I'm not going to be looking at the finish under a microscope, but I don't want the surface to appear noticeably grainy.

@2Diverse: thank you for the offer! However my wife wants to get me a new one for Christmas, so I'm going to oblige her.

@RK Ink and Focus: There must be a problem with my NEO. At 20 psi, it won't do much of anything and will sputter and clog in less than 3 seconds (again, with milk-viscosity-thinned paint). The width of spray pattern I'm going for is maybe 3/4 inch. The paint I use (acrylic) is one of the major brands here in the US (createxcolors dot com) and seems to be used by many people successfully, so I doubt that is the issue. I did buy my NEO brand new, but it's a year old, so probably out of warranty, and I can't prove anything is wrong with it.

I did get one reply (@huskystafford) about working technique, specifically how long to wait between coats and what to do with the brush (if anything) during that break. Also how many coats are needed to lay down a solid opaque color. I was hoping to get some more tips on that if you experts have some.

 

[tatocorvette]

Thanks yet again for all the tips!

@tatocorvette: you said the external brush atomization is "broad and coarse". I also heard that mentioned elsewhere. I definitely need "broad", but are those brushes still capable of producing a nice smooth finish? I'm really only looking for a result comparable to a good rattle can job. I'm not going to be looking at the finish under a microscope, but I don't want the surface to appear noticeably grainy.

Hello,

Yes! They can produce smooth finishes. Those are actually used by many automotive and motorcycle customizers as well as scale modelers. It is definitely well above a spray can because the atomization is far more consistent. The Paasche H has been in production for over 100 years and is still very popular in the scale modeling community.
Like anything else, it requires practice to master but it is well worth the effort.
The Paasche H (and the Badger 350 as well) have 3 available setups. Fine, medium and large. I would recommend the medium as a versatile setup. The large is almost capable of airbrushing asphalt and will drink paint like a horse drinking from a small glass.

Thanks,
Ismael

 

[RK Ink and Focus]

Depending where you are the Neos have a 5 or 10 year warranty! If you are not confident fault finding the front end of it I would contact iwata and describe your problem, they should be able to find the problem, fix it or it may be there is a clog inside they can rectify with a service.

Have a look at if the nozzle is seated correctly, it should sit flush and the oring should not be visible, it should also be central to the nozzle cap. You can seal the nozzle with wax rather than the oring to make sure it is fitted flush which is the way I prefer to do my sparmax nozzles.

 

[SiRoxx]

If it’s the Createx Colors range of paint, then they’re primarily designed as a T Shirt paint. They can be used for other applications though. My reference to being a t shirt paint is that it’s not uncommon for T painters to spray around 60 psi. So I wouldn’t be concerned about raising your pressure and seeing if it helps, along with the other advice that others have given.

 

[JackEb]

Welcome to the wonderful /frustrating journey of airbrushing

This is going to be along post so you may want to grab a coffee . . .
What you are experiencing is common, there is so much to learn and we all want to jump in and just paint, unfortunately this is rarely what happens. Just about anything in life has a learning curve and this is no exception


AIRBRUSH
Iwata Neo . . . . is made FOR Iwata, not BY Iwata and yes, they can be hit / miss. But keep going with it, if nothing else it will teach you how to dismantle and deep clean a brush.

TECHNICAL
you seem to be doing the right Air on/paint on/ paint off / Air off technique which is great.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned... Your PSI, make sure the airbrush trigger is PRESSED when you set the regulator so you get a 'working' pressure, not a tank pressure. the drop can be as much as 10-15 psi depending on your set up which can be the difference between good paint flow and tearing your hair out.

PAINT
"Airbrush ready" is a fallacy for 90% of the paint out there. Your paint may have been on the shelf for awhile and thickened slightly, The weather may be outside of the paints comfort zone . . there's many reasons why you may need to reduce your paint, so reduce it to the required consistency. Using the manufactures recommended reducers can seem a waste of money, BUT if you want the paint to perform at its best then becoming your own chemist and making your own reducer may not be the best thing to do. I'm all for using your own flavour of cleaners but when it comes to reducers you are best sticking with what the manufactures recommends for the best outcome and durability of your painting.
Side note: you mention adding Isopropyl to your reducer mix. . . PLEASE mask up when you use this, It isn't a product that should be inhaled, realistically nothing coming out of an airbrush should be inhaled but ISO has some very nasty and permanent effects on your lungs.
When I started airbrushing I bought exactly what you did, it seems logical right ? Airbrush paint is for an airbrush ! Yes, BUT, it's a bit like saying you should be able to pull your car into a gas station, grab a pump , fill up and drive away happy. What happens if you don't use the gas your car manufacturer recommends . . . ?

You are using 5210 , 5211 Opaque Airbrush colours. As @SiRoxx has noted, that is the 'Createx Airbrush Colours' range of paints. They are primarily aimed at textiles and have a higher PSI requirements than non textile range paints.

From Createx Airbrush Colors TDS. (technical Data Sheet)

​

Definition
- Cover opaque out of the bottle in 2 – 3 coats.
- Best sprayed with a 0.5mm / large tip-sized airbrush at higher psi settings, 35 – 45+ psi.
- Not for small airbrush tip-sizes smaller than 0.35mm. Even when over-reduced, Opaque Colors work better with large tip-sizes.
- For Opaque Colors which can be sprayed through medium and small tip-sizes down to 0.18mm at under 20 psi, Createx Illustration Opaque Colors work best.

Usage - Instructions
Createx Airbrush Colors can be used one of 3 ways:
- Sprayed directly from the bottle. Spray with a 0.5mm tip-size at higher psi settings
- Thin with 4011 Reducer. 4011 Reducer is generally added to Createx Airbrush Colors 10% to 30% per volume depending upon the airbrush
tip-size, color type and technique.
- Add a mixing clear : 4030 Balancing Clear or 4050 UVLS Gloss Clear:
10% per volume to Createx Airbrush Colors, then thin as needed with 4011 Reducer.

Wait 10-Minutes After Reducing for Optimum Flow
For optimum flow and leveling, allow colors to acclimate for 10+ minutes after thinning with 4011 Reducer before spraying.

Waiting those 10 minutes can seem ridiculous but it can make a huge difference. Straining your paint is also another great idea, paint will dry inside the cap of the paint bottle and is easily transferred to your cup and guess where it ends up (pantyhose works well if you can't get paint strainers)

You didn't specify which metallic paint you are using but with the Airbrush Color Range of Pearls the following info is on the TDS

• Best applied over white, grey or black base, such as Createx Opaque Airbrush Colors or AutoBorne Sealer.
• Best sprayed with a larger volume, 0.5mm tip-sized airbrush operated at 35 – 45+ psi
• For the best orientation of the pearlescent or metallic pearl, mix with 4050 UVLS Gloss Clear.

PSI is one of those variables that you need to juggle with the reduction of you paint, The thinner your paint the lower your PSI needs to be.
On a spare bit of paper do a test spray, if its spraying grainy then you either need to reduce your paint or increase your PSI. With time you'll learn the sweet spot for your specific needs.

OK, I'll stop here, I need a coffee and by now your brain is probably semi exploding

Happy to provide more input if needed

 

[RK Ink and Focus]

As well as the Jackie's comments about isopropyl alcohol, acrylics and thinners with isopropyl alcohol will tend to dry fast, including in your airbrush.

 

[Vaportrail]

metallics always sink to the bottom of your cup, when i spray them at work i use a pressure pot with an agitator in it to keep mixing while im spraying. You can try keeping the lid on it and give it a shake with your finger over the vent hole.
Maybe keep your needle cap off so you can deal with your tip dry.

 

[Gearcrusher]

I'm starting to realize there are some really knowledgeable and friendly people on this forum. Your attempts to help me solve this issue are much appreciated!

@RK Ink and Focus: thanks for mentioning the warranty, and you're correct, the warranty is 5 years (it's shown on their website). However, that's probably more useful for one of their expensive models (my used NEO is maybe worth $30, and shipping to Iwata and back would be nearly 2/3 of that, so may not be worth it.) Still, calling them to try to get troubleshooting help over the phone is a great idea and I may try that.

@JackFB: many thanks for the detailed post and tips. One thing you mention that I've NEVER heard is to wait 10 minutes after reducing. If the 4011 says that on the bottle, then shame on me since I totally missed it, but I don't think it does. Also, it was very gratifying for me to read your comment: '"Airbrush ready" is a fallacy for 90% of the paint out there.' That has been my sneaking suspicion all along, so you confirmed it.

@Vaportrail: thanks for the tips on metallics. Just looking at the paint and common sense suggested it was quickly separating. So I'll make sure to shake those often next time I use one.

 

[Gearcrusher]

Oops, middle comment above should have been directed to @JackEb ... sorry