The Customized Xtreme Patriot Arrow

[Drastion]

I actually did quite a bit of work with the Patriot, and Patriot Arrow several years ago. Between the original version of the Xtreme and later versions I found a manufacturing alteration that basically killed the brushes true potential. I think one of the reasons people find Tim's version so easy to do detail with, is that it is a brush that only works at about 60 or 70% of it's true potential/capability.

If you are on FB, I have a bit up a write up I did a few years ago -

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If you're not on FB - the first versions of the Patriot Xtreme had an air cap that exposed the needle all the time. Enough people complained about damaging the needle tip that they revised the air cap to include a reversible needle cap. When they made the revision they changed the specs of the cap buy enlarging the exit bore, and lengthening the amount of nozzle exposed at the front. The new dimensions are nowhere near as efficient at doing what they are supposed to do and it really crippled the brushes performance. The original exposed cap design was awesome. I made a few similar versions of my own testing stuff out, but lost interest in working on them...

That is pretty wild. I just assumed it was done that way to allow easier cleaning of tip dry. Looking at it now that I have more airbrushes to compare to. The nozzle does stick out a crazy distance from the body.

Looking at my Patriot and Patriot arrow next to each other. It is kind on crazy that bore for the air cap on the .3 on my arrow is larger than the bore for the .5 on the Patriot.

This does explain why it has been such a trip trying new airbrushes. Used my arrow so much before. Put it away during my ADD adventure and now see what I have been comparing them all to now.

Guess I will just stick with the medium Sotar for general work.

Not to further your distraction. But I have a extra non extreme patriotic arrow and super detail kit. If you want one to do experiments with.

 

[DaveG]

extra non extreme patriotic arrow and super detail kit

I appreciate your generosity, but I have everything covered. The only real difference between the Patriot and Patriot Xtreme is the "PAC" screw, which I find to be about one of the silliest "upgrades" in the entire airbrush industry (compared to virtually every other MAC valve out there) - so, I purchased 5 regular Patriot Arrows to work on using the super detail setups. One is left stock, while the others get test pieces to work with, so that I can accurately compare.

 

[Drastion]

I appreciate your generosity, but I have everything covered. The only real difference between the Patriot and Patriot Xtreme is the "PAC" screw, which I find to be about one of the silliest "upgrades" in the entire airbrush industry (compared to virtually every other MAC valve out there) - so, I purchased 5 regular Patriot Arrows to work on using the super detail setups. One is left stock, while the others get test pieces to work with, so that I can accurately compare.

Totally agree. I couldn't understand why they didn't weld a small blank on the bottom. Then there would at least be something to mount the MAC to instead of the thin wall of the airbrush.

I would think it is more of a source of air leakage than air control.

 

[bex]

What a shame they bowed to the pressure and then took a step backwards with performance.

Thanks for the non Facebooker round up, I am beginning to get the feeling I need facebook. Just so I can read your page!

yep makes no sense - you buy one of these because it has the exposed needle, the marketing is there for other models that have covered needles to be bought.

 

[DaveG]

I think it has some promise - best part is the very low air pressure it takes to get very smooth atomization (this was done at @6 or 8 psi - for sure under 10). I don't think I spent more than ten minutes actually spraying the brush since I installed the new cap, so I have more to discover, I am sure. This nozzle cap would not take any more to produce than the one they are currently knocking out. Even if the decided to keep the threaded needle cap it would still work. I might cut that one next, hmm... Trigger is also lowered as far as it can go and still get full needle draw, soft trigger spring, FFKM75-DG packing seal, and needle spring.

I need to make a "go-no go" gauge for the internal threads of the nozzle cap because I cut the part fitting to one head base. It fit perfectly, but was very tight on another, was loose on a second, and would not fit a third at all - so, variations in the base part sizing are going to open up the tolerances I would usually shoot for. More to follow...

 

[RK Ink and Focus]

That is pretty wild. I just assumed it was done that way to allow easier cleaning of tip dry. Looking at it now that I have more airbrushes to compare to. The nozzle does stick out a crazy distance from the body.

Looking at my Patriot and Patriot arrow next to each other. It is kind on crazy that bore for the air cap on the .3 on my arrow is larger than the bore for the .5 on the Patriot.

This does explain why it has been such a trip trying new airbrushes. Used my arrow so much before. Put it away during my ADD adventure and now see what I have been comparing them all to now.

Guess I will just stick with the medium Sotar for general work.

Not to further your distraction. But I have a extra non extreme patriotic arrow and super detail kit. If you want one to do experiments with.

Hold on to it! Dave may have a perfect upgrade package for it for sale soon!!

 

[tatocorvette]

Dave,

Curious: Do you know if this was only on the Extremes or was the regular Patriot/Anthem also affected?
I think my Anthem is an early unit while the Patriot is more recent.
My Patriot


My Anthem



Thanks,
Ismael

 

[DaveG]

Dave,

Curious: Do you know if this was only on the Extremes or was the regular Patriot/Anthem also affected?
I think my Anthem is an early unit while the Patriot is more recent.
My Patriot
View attachment 92053

My Anthem
View attachment 92054


Thanks,
Ismael

It was only the air caps produced for the Xtreme's and the Super Detail conversion sets for the Patriots. I actually tried modifying those caps (the ones you have), but the pressed in brass insert has a tendency to move or fall out if molested any.

 

[DaveG]

Yeah, I think I am happy with this one. I threaded the front to accept an Iwata sized threaded needle cap - lots of choices there. Atomizes very softly, and keeps the air relatively turbulence free for a respectable distance off the tip of the needle. Way more responsive than the stock caps offered on the brush now.

 

[tatocorvette]

Gorgeous work as usual.
Am I correct in assuming those 2 caps are identical specs except for the cap threads?

Thanks,
Ismael

 

[DaveG]

Gorgeous work as usual.
Am I correct in assuming those 2 caps are identical specs except for the cap threads?

Thanks,
Ismael

They are actually a little different from one another on the inside. There will be maybe 2 more internal dimension changes to test before deciding on a final spec.

 

[Leakyvalve]

I need to make a "go-no go" gauge for the internal threads of the nozzle cap because I cut the part fitting to one head base. It fit perfectly, but was very tight on another, was loose on a second, and would not fit a third at all - so, variations in the base part sizing are going to open up the tolerances I would usually shoot for. More to follow...

Are you saying above that the tip you made would only fit properly on ONE of Four factory bases from Badger? So NONE of the four were actually the same... they were all different in some way?

 

[DaveG]

Are you saying above that the tip you made would only fit properly on ONE of Four factory bases from Badger? So NONE of the four were actually the same... they were all different in some way?

that is what I said. Everything made has a tolerance range specified by the maker. Might be +/- 0.003" , or +/- 0.0005", or whatever the maker specifies for a certain part - this is normal. They have a bit of a loose tolerance range compared to many other brushes I have spec'd out or worked with. I had to open up the spec I would normally shoot for to assure a more universal fit on the brushes I am working with.

 

[Drastion]

Yeah, I think I am happy with this one. I threaded the front to accept an Iwata sized threaded needle cap - lots of choices there. Atomizes very softly, and keeps the air relatively turbulence free for a respectable distance off the tip of the needle. Way more responsive than the stock caps offered on the brush now.
View attachment 92058View attachment 92059

You sure work fast. Toying with a idea. Shortly after it is already made tested and pictures are posted.

Makes you wonder why badger didn't just keep the original cap around. The tooling and work for making it was already done. They could have just ordered a bunch and kept some in stock.

But nobody likes to point out downsides in a new design. It is always new and improved.

 

[DaveG]

You sure work fast. Toying with a idea. Shortly after it is already made tested and pictures are posted.

Makes you wonder why badger didn't just keep the original cap around. The tooling and work for making it was already done. They could have just ordered a bunch and kept some in stock.

But nobody likes to point out downsides in a new design. It is always new and improved.

hehehe, after that post I made another new cap. altering the specs a bit to test - I think I am where I want to be with it. Now, I test it for a while in use to see how it works out in a broader range of situations... I'm a full time caregiver, so am here all the time (home, studio and shop under one roof). I can pretty much do what I want most of the day, provided my wife isn't in need of assistance.



I have no idea why they did what they did with the caps. I found it perplexing. I tried inquiring, but I didn't get the feeling anyone wanted to try to answer the question.

 

[Drastion]

hehehe, after that post I made another new cap. altering the specs a bit to test - I think I am where I want to be with it. Now, I test it for a while in use to see how it works out in a broader range of situations... I'm a full time caregiver, so am here all the time (home, studio and shop under one roof). I can pretty much do what I want most of the day, provided my wife isn't in need of assistance.

View attachment 92063

I have no idea why they did what they did with the caps. I found it perplexing. I tried inquiring, but I didn't get the feeling anyone wanted to try to answer the question.

It literally blows my mind badger did not contract you to work on their new Phantom airbrush. They already know how passionate you are about airbrushes.

Being able go from idea to working prototype and having professional testing all in house with immediate results. Talk about a R&D dream come true.

Not trying to give you a big head. But you are already familiar with all the specs they would want to use and you can adjust the tolerance on the fly according to needs.

Check even a consulting position. Makes me want to send them the money to pay you for your work.

This new airbrush may be a way to get a new first class airbrush in their line and could turn things around for them as a company. Build their reputation back up. Pulling all the stops for this new airbrush with a standard hose connection anyone can use. They just need to read the writing on the walls.

Sorry about it turning into a rant. I am just really frustrated with Badger. A reputation is hard to build and easy to loose with how people love to dog pile on the internet. I am just seeing a brand I loved put themselves into the ground.

 

[Leakyvalve]

It literally blows my mind badger did not contract you to work on their new Phantom airbrush. They already know how passionate you are about airbrushes.

Being able go from idea to working prototype and having professional testing all in house with immediate results. Talk about a R&D dream come true.

Not trying to give you a big head. But you are already familiar with all the specs they would want to use and you can adjust the tolerance on the fly according to needs.

Check even a consulting position. Makes me want to send them the money to pay you for your work.

This new airbrush may be a way to get a new first class airbrush in their line and could turn things around for them as a company. Build their reputation back up. Pulling all the stops for this new airbrush with a standard hose connection anyone can use. They just need to read the writing on the walls.

Sorry about it turning into a rant. I am just really frustrated with Badger. A reputation is hard to build and easy to loose with how people love to dog pile on the internet. I am just seeing a brand I loved put themselves into the ground.

I don't think it would matter if they consulted with Dave, because they just DO NOT have the ability to do the fine machining he does.
He could give em all the specs and even the prototype to copy and they couldn't make a duplicate in 100 tries.

 

[Drastion]

I don't think it would matter if they consulted with Dave, because they just DO NOT have the ability to do the fine machining he does.
He could give em all the specs and even the prototype to copy and they couldn't make a duplicate in 100 tries.

I get that part. I mean they outsource all the machining and just assemble everything in house. I have no idea how many engineers or design staff they have to make a new airbrush product.

It is just at least I hope so that they are designing a brand new airbrush. Ignoring cup styles they only make 3 airbrushes. The pro production is a great workhorse, the Sotar/Renegade are great for detail, and the legend are I am guessing just legacy products for them at this point.

Dave has 100s airbrushes and has probably something from every manufacturer of significance out there in airbrush history and has intimate knowledge of them.

That is an invaluable resource to bounce ideas off of to be able to not only create something unique but to avoid pitfalls in design like they have with the Extreme. Things like how he instantly caught on to the problems the pinch tip design could make if done wrong.

I am a proactive kind of guy and prefer fixing issues before they be come a problem and that is what R&D is all about and what makes Dave perfect for the role. Not just the knowledge but the self driven determination and passion to get things done right. His solvent o-ring project is a perfect example of that.

 

[Ragno]

Yeah, I think I am happy with this one. I threaded the front to accept an Iwata sized threaded needle cap - lots of choices there. Atomizes very softly, and keeps the air relatively turbulence free for a respectable distance off the tip of the needle. Way more responsive than the stock caps offered on the brush now.
View attachment 92058View attachment 92059

It would be great if you would dare to publish a video or photos of the machining process of those nozzles or other types of parts that you sometimes show us. It's great to see the pieces but it would be much more interesting to see what type of tools you specifically use and what the machining process consists of. I have a mini lathe and machining tools, as a hobby, and I would love to see how you do it and thus have a clear example and be clear about what exactly you do. It would be great.

 

[DaveG]

I really have no way of doing, or providing video. Besides, machining is boring to watch. I mean, CNC is pretty fascinating, watching the machine just do it's thing, but I am all manual. I use a Seig Mini Lathe for probably 90% of the work, a larger Grizzly lathe at times, and a round column mill. It took me a good 6 hours on the machine to figure out the first cap. A 6 hour video of me cursing and throwing things isn't probably very interesting either ;-)