new needle seal (o-ring) testing

[Ronald art]

it is and was on my to get list since I saw the first results , mind you I only use water based paints but I do want that "rubber seal feel" back in my micron and your test only proves what I expected it has a feel to it that is close or even better than the rubber seals that used to be in the V1 microns

 

[Vladimir]

it is and was on my to get list since I saw the first results , mind you I only use water based paints but I do want that "rubber seal feel" back in my micron and your test only proves what I expected it has a feel to it that is close or even better than the rubber seals that used to be in the V1 microns

Would be great to hear from you, what you will say.
I just used WB paints in the beginning and remember that time with the tremor I needed smth solvent proof and it's great to have it now.

 

[Robbyrockett2]

So, today I'm done with the testing!
The urethane paint was inside the cup for 17 days reduced with slow basecoat thinner.

After some final shots of the paint I cleaned the AB and removed an O-ring. It was a surprise to have that feel when removing the needle, so soft compared to teflon packing, that I need to get used to it.
Movement of the needle was the same smooth as it was in the beginning of the experiment. Read the first post in this thread how works and feels. I have nothing to add.

The measurements.
Were done with the same tool, same needle, same O-ring before the test and right after, when the AB was cleaned and the O-ring removed.
What I saw surprised me. You can see it on the photo.
Diameter of 3,031 in the beginning and 3,037 in the end. I have not expected to see that, honestly I expected another result. The difference is about nothing. One can not feel this difference in the needle movement.
The O-ring looks like it was new. You can also see it on the photo.

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What I think now about this product? I will buy to install these O-rings in my detail airbrushes. High recommendations for everyone to try. Just buy one O-ring and then decide For I want have these O-rings in my ABs.

And some things translated into Airbrush language

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It was just for fun, no intentions to get crazy about precise pictures, just like fast drawing with a pencil. The things are small as it's 0.18mm Olympos nozzle, that in reality has smaller diameter than Iwata's 0.18. I also didn't go crazy about the right paint reduction, I had another goal.

As I've already said above due to the soft O-ring installed airbrush starts spraying just where you need it to. That's really great feature. You will understand me if you will change your teflon packing for this type of solvent proof O-ring. Your experience is the best answer.

One thing remained is to know how the thing is durable. I can't say it in two weeks of usage. Only time will show. Any other characteristics are just great.

The end of the experiment.

These doodles are great!
And I actually never realized how much an airbrush could resemble a Saturn V. Rocket before I saw them.

 

[crewchief227]

I would love to test this in my Microns. My SB is a finicky bitch, we're talking less than an 1/8th of a turn to go from barely seated leaky needle, to too tight causing slow drag on the trigger return. I think the true test though is to use them daily, with thousands of micro actuation and see if they can hold up. Also are you polishing your needles, cause that's how I get mine to glide baby smooth?

 

[Vladimir]

And I actually never realized how much an airbrush could resemble a Saturn V. Rocket before I saw them.

Yes, and it's great to have the rocket technologies inside the airbrush!

I would love to test this in my Microns. My SB is a finicky bitch, we're talking less than an 1/8th of a turn to go from barely seated leaky needle, to too tight causing slow drag on the trigger return. I think the true test though is to use them daily, with thousands of micro actuation and see if they can hold up.

I well understand what you're talking about. That's minuses of the teflon seal for detail airbrush. You just can not have these headaches with new O-ring.
I can say this as I've already tried the product.

Also are you polishing your needles, cause that's how I get mine to glide baby smooth?

I don't know if the question is towards me, but I can say that all my needles are polished, those installed in the ABs. It adds the smoothness to the needle movement. Combined with soft O-ring you will have smth like different airbrush.

 

[DaveG]

I would love to test this in my Microns. My SB is a finicky bitch, we're talking less than an 1/8th of a turn to go from barely seated leaky needle, to too tight causing slow drag on the trigger return. I think the true test though is to use them daily, with thousands of micro actuation and see if they can hold up. Also are you polishing your needles, cause that's how I get mine to glide baby smooth?

I use them almost daily, and have been testing extensively with solvents that are on the way harsh side. They hold up day in and day out just like one would want them too... You will not find a better solution available for this application. Maybe equal, but not better.

 

[crewchief227]

Ok so here's a quandary, iwata switched out the needle packing to PFTE. But, the seal seated in the body behind the head assembly (#2 on the parts diagram) is still your average rubber o-ring. Now I know you'll are gonna say, "Crew that's there to seal the air passage from the paint passage so you won't get back flushing in the cup". Which is true, but idk about you but every time I break down my Microns their is paint residue on this seal, which means media does come in contact with this seal, and it just doesn't stop air from going into paint, but also paint going into air. So reasonably although the paint shaft of the head should go thru this seal and mate with the actual body, there is a micro gap where paint comes in constant contact with this seal. I can see why it's not PFTE as it's impossible to make it adjustable, yet, at least for me, I have never had to replace this seal even after years of use. For the urethane crowd idk if this is true as well, but if it is, and this seal has never disintegrated in their Microns (or other iwatas) is the PFTE seal more hype, or was it an honest problem that needed rectifying? I wonder

 

[DaveG]

Ok so here's a quandary, iwata switched out the needle packing to PFTE. But, the seal seated in the body behind the head assembly (#2 on the parts diagram) is still your average rubber o-ring. Now I know you'll are gonna say, "Crew that's there to seal the air passage from the paint passage so you won't get back flushing in the cup". Which is true, but idk about you but every time I break down my Microns their is paint residue on this seal, which means media does come in contact with this seal, and it just doesn't stop air from going into paint, but also paint going into air. So reasonably although the paint shaft of the head should go thru this seal and mate with the actual body, there is a micro gap where paint comes in constant contact with this seal. I can see why it's not PFTE as it's impossible to make it adjustable, yet, at least for me, I have never had to replace this seal even after years of use. For the urethane crowd idk if this is true as well, but if it is, and this seal has never disintegrated in their Microns (or other iwatas) is the PFTE seal more hype, or was it an honest problem that needed rectifying? I wonder

stick a Buna-N (nitrile) o-ring in your needle packing (1mmx1mm), and use Alcohols, Lacquer thinner, or Acetone on a regular basis, and you will have your answer whether Teflon was a real mod, or placebo in the needle packing area... Or you could just look at material data sheets and see what the effect of said solvents are on a normal o-ring.

 

[Robbyrockett2]

Ok so here's a quandary, iwata switched out the needle packing to PFTE. But, the seal seated in the body behind the head assembly (#2 on the parts diagram) is still your average rubber o-ring. Now I know you'll are gonna say, "Crew that's there to seal the air passage from the paint passage so you won't get back flushing in the cup". Which is true, but idk about you but every time I break down my Microns their is paint residue on this seal, which means media does come in contact with this seal, and it just doesn't stop air from going into paint, but also paint going into air. So reasonably although the paint shaft of the head should go thru this seal and mate with the actual body, there is a micro gap where paint comes in constant contact with this seal. I can see why it's not PFTE as it's impossible to make it adjustable, yet, at least for me, I have never had to replace this seal even after years of use. For the urethane crowd idk if this is true as well, but if it is, and this seal has never disintegrated in their Microns (or other iwatas) is the PFTE seal more hype, or was it an honest problem that needed rectifying? I wonder

The main factors there are
1. That seal is not dynamic so it doesn't contend with being rubbed at the time it's in contact with solvent.
2. The contact area is very small relative to the size of the seal so swelling just isn't given as much chance to happen
3. When it's is softened/ swelled by solvent on that small area it simply recovers upon drying since it isn't rubbed there at the same time.


Personally I think no needle packing seal is best, but the trade off is just a hair more cleaning/maintenance.

 

[crewchief227]

The main factors there are
1. That seal is not dynamic so it doesn't contend with being rubbed at the time it's in contact with solvent.
2. The contact area is very small relative to the size of the seal so swelling just isn't given as much chance to happen
3. When it's is softened/ swelled by solvent on that small area it simply recovers upon drying since it isn't rubbed there at the same time.


Personally I think no seal is best, but the trade off is just a more cleaning/maintenance.

True you wouldn't want to rub it the wrong way

 

[Vladimir]

Ok so here's a quandary, iwata switched out the needle packing to PFTE. But, the seal seated in the body behind the head assembly (#2 on the parts diagram) is still your average rubber o-ring. Now I know you'll are gonna say, "Crew that's there to seal the air passage from the paint passage so you won't get back flushing in the cup". Which is true, but idk about you but every time I break down my Microns their is paint residue on this seal, which means media does come in contact with this seal, and it just doesn't stop air from going into paint, but also paint going into air. So reasonably although the paint shaft of the head should go thru this seal and mate with the actual body, there is a micro gap where paint comes in constant contact with this seal. I can see why it's not PFTE as it's impossible to make it adjustable, yet, at least for me, I have never had to replace this seal even after years of use. For the urethane crowd idk if this is true as well, but if it is, and this seal has never disintegrated in their Microns (or other iwatas) is the PFTE seal more hype, or was it an honest problem that needed rectifying? I wonder

They switched to the teflon maybe because they didn't have at the time of making decision to switch the material used for these O-rings.

I'm that one among the users of urethanes you mentioned. And I always have tiny ring of the paint at the place where the paint passage can't be cleaned, no matter how I'm stubborn in the cleaning, be sure I am It's just how the thing is built.

The seal doesn't allow the air come into paint, if it would be so, the AB would not work

PFTE was not hype. If you'd have the thinner on your fingers, you'd immediately understand why, I had

And maybe Robby would tease people what more may appear on the market besides the needle seal

 

[Ronald art]

@Vladimir I now have this seal in my micron but with a worn out nozzle I am not able to use this airbrush as I would want to but I did test the seal and all I can say is that it has the feel of the rubber seal that is in a v1 micron the needle action is nice and smooth as I like it and I can set my needle spring tension as light as I want it to be to this seal has the best of both worlds : the softness of the rubber seal but if I ever feel the need to use a solvent I could do it without damaging the seal

 

[Vladimir]

@Vladimir I now have this seal in my micron but with a worn out nozzle I am not able to use this airbrush as I would want to but I did test the seal and all I can say is that it has the feel of the rubber seal that is in a v1 micron the needle action is nice and smooth as I like it and I can set my needle spring tension as light as I want it to be to this seal has the best of both worlds : the softness of the rubber seal but if I ever feel the need to use a solvent I could do it without damaging the seal

@Ronald art I understand just every word of yours!
I remember that feel of rubber in micron (and non micron also), but that was no way to go for the paints in my use. I mean without solvent proof properties.
Yes, you just need the nut almost touch the seal and you're there!
That's cool to have those properties of the O-ring, solvent proof and soft! Love that. One thing I don't like about the O-rings is the amount of cash that I'll have to pay for all the seals I plan to change. I need dozens! Though, anything else about the seals I like.

 

[Ronald art]

@Vladimir I understand your argument about the price I only need 2 so I can live with $20 price tag for a nut and seal set , maybe you can get a discount is you order over 10 seals

 

[Robbyrockett2]

@Vladimir I understand your argument about the price I only need 2 so I can live with $20 price tag for a nut and seal set , maybe you can get a discount is you order over 10 seals

Right now @Vladimir would have to ask @DaveG about a quantity discount. He paid for the first batch and at the current rate of sales i dont think I'll be ordering a new batch anytime soon.

 

[DaveG]

Right now @Vladimir would have to ask @DaveG about a quantity discount. He paid for the first batch and at the current rate of sales i dont think I'll be ordering a new batch anytime soon.

Yeah, I was going to say ask Robby . Vlad, if you know how many you really want, let one of us know, and I am sure we can/will come up with something that will work for everyone.

 

[Vladimir]

Thanx guys! Will contact

 

[Ronald art]

I checked what a new original teflon seal for the micron that is only sold with the seal nut would set me back and converted the price from euro to dollar and it turns out the new O ring from Robby with a nut is $6 dollar cheaper and this is with out shipping costs , the original seal to me is a no go as it is to hard now if you can adjust your own seal nut you save an other $ 5
side note : the price of the original is with out shipping and you need to ad that to the final price

 

[ian chan]

hi guys.
recently I got my hand on a Olympos HP101, and I wish to switch out the needle packing o ring to PFTE since I use quite a lot of lacquer paint. with all the research I did I still can't get a clear answer. So I decide to register an account to ask here: Can someone point me to the right direction of which and what kind of teflon o ring that will fit in to the HP 101 ??? And so where I can get them?
Many thanks.

 

[ian chan]

Hey my bad, after reading this post one more time over again, I guess DaveG's product might be what I am looking for.